Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Silencia"]
That would surely make them Pink!
That would surely make them Pink!
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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[Guide] How to write a Sith - Part 6 (Conversion)
- Thread starter Teynara Jeralyr
- Start date
Quietus
Hunting Again
Klesta
The King of Ergonomic Assessments
In several respects, much like a Jedi becomes a Sith acolyte in several respects regardless of the power level one used to have when one becomes a Sith, a Sith that becomes a Jedi is a padawan in several respects at the beginning, regardless of the Sith's previous power level. That, even though people going in either direction aren't apprentices that must start from scratch entirely if only because their lightsaber skills seem to be less affected by the Force-methodology in use.
[member="Silencia"] Most Light Sith, in canon, either retain their original lightsaber crystals or change crystals for something that isn't some shade of red. Lightish-red lightsabers would only account for a small number among the Light Sith.
[member="Silencia"] Most Light Sith, in canon, either retain their original lightsaber crystals or change crystals for something that isn't some shade of red. Lightish-red lightsabers would only account for a small number among the Light Sith.
Darth Abyss
Eldritch
Light Sith ...
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Darth Abyss"]
You didn't even have to say anything, and I agree with you
You didn't even have to say anything, and I agree with you
Quietus
Hunting Again
[member="Yula Knezevic"]
I was being facetious.
Light Sith aren't a thing.
I was being facetious.
Light Sith aren't a thing.
Naamah Aesham
Redemption is the path, not the destination
[member="Tirdarius"]
Pink Sith!
On a more serious level, I'd agree regarding Light Sith. Truth be told, even the 'Light Sith' playthrough in TOR didn't strike me as 'light side'. You're still supporting a racist, slaveholding totalitarian empire, after all. What seems to characterise most ostensibly 'light side' Sith decisions is that you're more pragmatic. Most of your actions seems to be about strengthening the Empire as well as yourself, and being cunning as opposed to simply killing everything that gets in your way. Hell, in some instances you're more effective at corrupting Jedi or making them doubt their path. But none of this is light side.
It just looks 'light side' because, alas, the average Sith in TOR is a Stupid Evil cardboard cutout (which makes those Sith in the game who have more long-term vision or simple common sense like Darth Marr stand out). If TOR mechanics were applied, Palpatine would've probably received a few light side points simply because he used his brain and bided his time when he schemed to seize absolute power...but no one would seriously say he was a Light Sith with alruistic aims! Certainly not a Kindly Sith.
I write several 'Dark Jedi'. The name is a misnomer since only one of them was ever a Jedi. Something more generic like Dark Master/Knight/Apprentice fits better. I wouldn't consider any of them nice people who can magically use dark powers without being corrupted and are still pure as white snow, though I dislike SW's simplistic, binary morality and prefer the D&D alignment system.
Siobhan has certain morals and loves her family, but is also a ruthless autocrat who accepts no constraints on her authority and has a lot of blood on her hands. A 'benevolent despot' is still a despot. Naamah's a torturer and a killer and Enyo doesn't care about anyone except herself and Amara (and seems more pissed about Archangel using her as their tool than the fact that she's also responsible for the bad things she did for them).
Pink Sith!
On a more serious level, I'd agree regarding Light Sith. Truth be told, even the 'Light Sith' playthrough in TOR didn't strike me as 'light side'. You're still supporting a racist, slaveholding totalitarian empire, after all. What seems to characterise most ostensibly 'light side' Sith decisions is that you're more pragmatic. Most of your actions seems to be about strengthening the Empire as well as yourself, and being cunning as opposed to simply killing everything that gets in your way. Hell, in some instances you're more effective at corrupting Jedi or making them doubt their path. But none of this is light side.
It just looks 'light side' because, alas, the average Sith in TOR is a Stupid Evil cardboard cutout (which makes those Sith in the game who have more long-term vision or simple common sense like Darth Marr stand out). If TOR mechanics were applied, Palpatine would've probably received a few light side points simply because he used his brain and bided his time when he schemed to seize absolute power...but no one would seriously say he was a Light Sith with alruistic aims! Certainly not a Kindly Sith.
I write several 'Dark Jedi'. The name is a misnomer since only one of them was ever a Jedi. Something more generic like Dark Master/Knight/Apprentice fits better. I wouldn't consider any of them nice people who can magically use dark powers without being corrupted and are still pure as white snow, though I dislike SW's simplistic, binary morality and prefer the D&D alignment system.
Siobhan has certain morals and loves her family, but is also a ruthless autocrat who accepts no constraints on her authority and has a lot of blood on her hands. A 'benevolent despot' is still a despot. Naamah's a torturer and a killer and Enyo doesn't care about anyone except herself and Amara (and seems more pissed about Archangel using her as their tool than the fact that she's also responsible for the bad things she did for them).
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Naamah Aesham"]
Couldn't have put it better myself. Half the problem we have with our definitions, ultimately, is because they either focus on allegiance (the oxymoronic 'Dark Jedi' and 'Light Sith', which are neither Jedi nor Sith), or because they presuppose a level of ethical integrity which, in truth, can apply to either main group. Sith are perfectly capable of being ethical, but as pragmatists, they're willing to make difficult choices, even if that requires an immoral act. Jedi are perfectly capable of making immoral decisions and actions, too, provided it is all for 'the greater good'. Neither one can be entirely pushed into a corner in an ethical sense. What it comes down to is ideology, the way they use the Force, and their long-term goals.
'Dark Jedi' remains an oxymoron because you needn't have been a Jedi (or ever become one). To my mind, that one can be maintained because 99% of the Galaxy knows the Jedi are the pre-eminent Force Users, protectors of the Republic/GA/Whatever, and the visual face of all Force Users. Thus, one who acts in contrast to their ethical precepts is a 'Dark' version of their Order, even if they've never been a member of it. It's a public perception. They're not thought of as Sith or any other group because, hell, most of the Galaxy knows nothing about the Sith, and never will. That's the same issue with 'Light Sith': nobody who falls from the Sith path or adheres to the Light would ever call themselves that. They'd be a non-aligned Force User, someone who has chosen their own path independently. To the Jedi, a radical. To the Sith, a heretic. But not a member of either group, and not entitled to call themselves as such.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Half the problem we have with our definitions, ultimately, is because they either focus on allegiance (the oxymoronic 'Dark Jedi' and 'Light Sith', which are neither Jedi nor Sith), or because they presuppose a level of ethical integrity which, in truth, can apply to either main group. Sith are perfectly capable of being ethical, but as pragmatists, they're willing to make difficult choices, even if that requires an immoral act. Jedi are perfectly capable of making immoral decisions and actions, too, provided it is all for 'the greater good'. Neither one can be entirely pushed into a corner in an ethical sense. What it comes down to is ideology, the way they use the Force, and their long-term goals.
'Dark Jedi' remains an oxymoron because you needn't have been a Jedi (or ever become one). To my mind, that one can be maintained because 99% of the Galaxy knows the Jedi are the pre-eminent Force Users, protectors of the Republic/GA/Whatever, and the visual face of all Force Users. Thus, one who acts in contrast to their ethical precepts is a 'Dark' version of their Order, even if they've never been a member of it. It's a public perception. They're not thought of as Sith or any other group because, hell, most of the Galaxy knows nothing about the Sith, and never will. That's the same issue with 'Light Sith': nobody who falls from the Sith path or adheres to the Light would ever call themselves that. They'd be a non-aligned Force User, someone who has chosen their own path independently. To the Jedi, a radical. To the Sith, a heretic. But not a member of either group, and not entitled to call themselves as such.
Klesta
The King of Ergonomic Assessments
While it held true in the prequel trilogy era, it doesn't hold anymore as far as Chaos is concerned: many IC history books would talk about multiple aspects of Jedi-vs-Sith through the ages, so I would expect a significant chunk of the population to learn about both, if only in a very shallow manner. Plus when the One Sith, at one point, controlled significant chunks of the galaxy, and Atrisia, Yutan, Mindabaal, the Stygian Caldera, after the OS fell, and many of the factions would still have fresh memories of the OS, Rogue or not, because they fought them.Tirdarius said:
At that point in galactic history, when Jedi and Sith roughly match each other in numbers, you'd expect significant chunks of the galaxy to know about both, and not just single-digit perentages. So the notion of Sith falling out from the dark side but still somehow adhere to their ideology is not unknown to the galaxy at large.
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Yula Knezevic"]
It's not possible to continue to adhere to Sith ideology as a Light Side Force User. Sith are pragmatists, which means they will do whatever needs to be done in order to achieve their objectives: ultimately, control of the Galaxy, unified under Sith governance. They don't give a damn about ethics, because those are obstacles: social constructs created to protect differing individuals in a society, to give everyone a sense of safety and security that the Sith are well aware does not truly exist. They will kill, murder, steal, plot, assassinate, maim, lie, even massacre, because it moves them closer to achieving their objectives. Those standing in their way are obstacles, and are treated as such. Their sense of ethics exists only in how they deal with those who do not stand in their path: they can be left alone, provided they do as they're told, and serve a useful purpose. Put bluntly, Sith are not ethical beings.
More to the point, a Sith cannot tap into the Light Side: to do so draws them away from the natural source of their power, and is a direct contradiction to the Sith Code. Peace is a lie: there is only passion. A Light Side Force User does not tap into their passion. Ergo, they are not Sith.
Coming up with and trying to advocate a term just so you can justify your roleplay does not make it so. And you'll only ever be seen as a heretic by any serious Sith. Espouse the philosophy of a Light Sith, and you'll killed on sight, because such perversions cannot be permitted by the Sith - honestly, we prefer Jedi to that level of Heresy. You claim the name of a Sith at your own risk.
It's not possible to continue to adhere to Sith ideology as a Light Side Force User. Sith are pragmatists, which means they will do whatever needs to be done in order to achieve their objectives: ultimately, control of the Galaxy, unified under Sith governance. They don't give a damn about ethics, because those are obstacles: social constructs created to protect differing individuals in a society, to give everyone a sense of safety and security that the Sith are well aware does not truly exist. They will kill, murder, steal, plot, assassinate, maim, lie, even massacre, because it moves them closer to achieving their objectives. Those standing in their way are obstacles, and are treated as such. Their sense of ethics exists only in how they deal with those who do not stand in their path: they can be left alone, provided they do as they're told, and serve a useful purpose. Put bluntly, Sith are not ethical beings.
More to the point, a Sith cannot tap into the Light Side: to do so draws them away from the natural source of their power, and is a direct contradiction to the Sith Code. Peace is a lie: there is only passion. A Light Side Force User does not tap into their passion. Ergo, they are not Sith.
Coming up with and trying to advocate a term just so you can justify your roleplay does not make it so. And you'll only ever be seen as a heretic by any serious Sith. Espouse the philosophy of a Light Sith, and you'll killed on sight, because such perversions cannot be permitted by the Sith - honestly, we prefer Jedi to that level of Heresy. You claim the name of a Sith at your own risk.
Darth Veles
Sweet Avreet
Cannot because it is impossible, or won't because doing so equals cutting off the source of their power? It is in my understanding Sith would not refuse using the light side if doing so meant furthering their goals. Now, I do not mean "switching" from the dark side to the light side as some here suggest - I mean using the light side solely to study its strengths and weaknesses, exploring its workings, leaning how to exploit its users and gaining knowledge of enemies of the Sith. Simply knowing how to tap in the light side offers a significant insight into how the Jedi work, which in itself is invaluable. While devoting oneself to the light side certainly goes against the Sith ways, what about temporarily abusing the light side for the sake of power and knowledge?Tirdarius said:
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Darth Veles"]
Using the Light Side requires a completely different emotional methodology: a Light Side Force User must be selfless, be able to let go of their ego, desires, passions, and allow themselves to become an empty conduit for what the Jedi term 'The Will of the Force'. The Force, therefore, uses them. Sith believe in using their passions to tap into the Force, and thus are always completely there. To go from one to the other seems honestly absurd: they're contradictory methodologies. Is it possible? Yes. But only a truly weak Sith would ever be able to: any that had spent large amounts of time with the Dark would never really be able to go back. It'd be like fighting left-handed after decades of using your right-hand. You might gain some competency, but unlikely you'd ever achieve anything more than a bit of random flailing.
Using the Light Side requires a completely different emotional methodology: a Light Side Force User must be selfless, be able to let go of their ego, desires, passions, and allow themselves to become an empty conduit for what the Jedi term 'The Will of the Force'. The Force, therefore, uses them. Sith believe in using their passions to tap into the Force, and thus are always completely there. To go from one to the other seems honestly absurd: they're contradictory methodologies. Is it possible? Yes. But only a truly weak Sith would ever be able to: any that had spent large amounts of time with the Dark would never really be able to go back. It'd be like fighting left-handed after decades of using your right-hand. You might gain some competency, but unlikely you'd ever achieve anything more than a bit of random flailing.
Darth Abyss
Eldritch
While sith might now how to tap into the light, theoretically, they can't without betraying the sith code. No peace, only passion etc. They definitely use the powers that are universal to all FUs, tapping in to the living force to sense their surroundings, amplify their instincts and reflexes, but to truly use the light a sith would have to be at peace, filled with serenity and be detached from the ego. Like many sith would use the Light to further their goals, but I think it's simply not possible to be a sith and tap into it. Just my two cents on this. [member="Darth Veles"]
I did my best to ignore this discussion, but I just can't anymore. The sith code, like any philosophical text, is open to interpretation sure, but there are limits to how far someone can stretch it. You can have a rather gray alignment, maybe even a good one if you have some sort of greater goal as a sith, but you can't use the light and be a sith. The mindset that is needed to truly tap into the light is the complete opposite to that of the sith. No ego, no feelings, only peace. I mean, I hope I don't have to point out the problem here, if you really intend to play a sith character.
[member="Yula Knezevic"]
I did my best to ignore this discussion, but I just can't anymore. The sith code, like any philosophical text, is open to interpretation sure, but there are limits to how far someone can stretch it. You can have a rather gray alignment, maybe even a good one if you have some sort of greater goal as a sith, but you can't use the light and be a sith. The mindset that is needed to truly tap into the light is the complete opposite to that of the sith. No ego, no feelings, only peace. I mean, I hope I don't have to point out the problem here, if you really intend to play a sith character.
[member="Yula Knezevic"]
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Darth Abyss"]
You and I are of one mind in this respect Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly possible to feel calm and peaceful as a Sith, but the egolessness required to tap into the Light Side simply isn't possible for us: it requires that we let go, and to a Sith, that is chaining themselves to the Force, becoming the servants of it, and not those capable of mastering it. We simply couldn't do it and continue to call ourselves Sith.
And all I would call it is Heresy
You and I are of one mind in this respect
Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly possible to feel calm and peaceful as a Sith, but the egolessness required to tap into the Light Side simply isn't possible for us: it requires that we let go, and to a Sith, that is chaining themselves to the Force, becoming the servants of it, and not those capable of mastering it. We simply couldn't do it and continue to call ourselves Sith.And all I would call it is Heresy
Darth Veles
Sweet Avreet
[member="Tirdarius"]
That is completely true. It also means both Sith and Jedi need to be in control of their emotions - both for entirely different reasons and in entirely different ways. Jedi need to learn selflessness, how to not act upon their emotion, be in the state of calm. Sith, on the other hand, must turn their passions into a source of power, constantly keep this source fuelled and fed while using emotions effectively. If Sith mastered control over their emotions to the degree achieving inner peace was possible, however temporarily, wouldn't that be a sign of strength rather than weakness?
That is completely true. It also means both Sith and Jedi need to be in control of their emotions - both for entirely different reasons and in entirely different ways. Jedi need to learn selflessness, how to not act upon their emotion, be in the state of calm. Sith, on the other hand, must turn their passions into a source of power, constantly keep this source fuelled and fed while using emotions effectively. If Sith mastered control over their emotions to the degree achieving inner peace was possible, however temporarily, wouldn't that be a sign of strength rather than weakness?
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Darth Veles"]
Inner peace is perfectly possible for a Sith: after all, we must be, to an extent, otherwise how could we accept the monsters that we must sometimes be? Sith are in control of themselves, and not at war within. The Jedi, on the other hand, reject their most basic impulses and drives, so their lives are a constant struggle, aspiring to Light and rejecting the Darkness. They cannot truly ever be at peace with themselves, and when they are...well, as the Sith Code says, peace is a lie. Sith embrace the person that they are, accept themselves, embrace their passions, their vices, their depravities, but also their empathy, their ability to feel. They're capable of true compassion and depthless cruelty, because that's the nature of their pragmatism. So, yeah, they absolutely can, but they cannot, as a consequence, embrace the Light Side: they can be peaceful internally, but they cannot rid themselves of ego, because that is central to who and what are.
My favourite Jedi metaphor: that we are a jug that must be emptied of emotions, passions, desires and ambitions, so that the Force may fill us. For the Sith, we are a jug brimming with all these things, but through this, do we experience the Force more deeply, because it is reflective of those passions, desires and ambitions in others. Sith...are human. Jedi deny their humanity, and therefore never truly know peace. Nor should they.
Inner peace is perfectly possible for a Sith: after all, we must be, to an extent, otherwise how could we accept the monsters that we must sometimes be? Sith are in control of themselves, and not at war within. The Jedi, on the other hand, reject their most basic impulses and drives, so their lives are a constant struggle, aspiring to Light and rejecting the Darkness. They cannot truly ever be at peace with themselves, and when they are...well, as the Sith Code says, peace is a lie. Sith embrace the person that they are, accept themselves, embrace their passions, their vices, their depravities, but also their empathy, their ability to feel. They're capable of true compassion and depthless cruelty, because that's the nature of their pragmatism. So, yeah, they absolutely can, but they cannot, as a consequence, embrace the Light Side: they can be peaceful internally, but they cannot rid themselves of ego, because that is central to who and what are.
My favourite Jedi metaphor: that we are a jug that must be emptied of emotions, passions, desires and ambitions, so that the Force may fill us. For the Sith, we are a jug brimming with all these things, but through this, do we experience the Force more deeply, because it is reflective of those passions, desires and ambitions in others. Sith...are human. Jedi deny their humanity, and therefore never truly know peace. Nor should they.
Klesta
The King of Ergonomic Assessments
[member="Darth Abyss"] It's not about Yula using the light as a Sith. It's just that I made comments in passing about how the Star Tours Guide to Force Specialties is inaccurate on the topic of Light Sith.
Nevertheless my initial point stands: a Force-user changing alignment and denomination in either direction has to start at the lowest rung in their new denomination, and not just because of the requisite change in Force-methodology, although lightsaber skills usually depend less on the Force-methodology.
Nevertheless my initial point stands: a Force-user changing alignment and denomination in either direction has to start at the lowest rung in their new denomination, and not just because of the requisite change in Force-methodology, although lightsaber skills usually depend less on the Force-methodology.
Teynara Jeralyr
Resident Sig Lord
[member="Yula Knezevic"]
Fortunate, then, that isn't the 'Star Tours Guide' to really anything. That, I believe, is a different topic. Kindly keep it out of mine.
Fortunate, then, that isn't the 'Star Tours Guide' to really anything. That, I believe, is a different topic. Kindly keep it out of mine.
Darth Abyss
Eldritch
I have literally no idea what this means, but I really don't care enough to ask anymore. Also light sith aren't a thing, and will never be one, no matter how hard you try lol.Yula Knezevic said:
And I also have no idea what the second part of your answer has do to with what I wrote but whatever.
[member="Yula Knezevic"]