Character Creation Checks.

[Nyxie]

If the problem is what can be interpreted as "crappy" bios, the simple solution is to try and converse and commune with the person in question, and try to help them improve. Guide them. You can't just say "your character is beneath my standards so you shouldn't be allowed to play."

Looping back to what I had been trying to say so fervently, we're a community and we should be acting like one, and helping one another achieve the same level of enjoyment as we would expect to get out of the community. New members don't come here to serve what is a statistically narrowed view of what is acceptable, because they are not here to service us who have successfully integrated ourselves into that community. They're not here to serve us in any capacity. Nor is the forum staff. What is more, denying these members or their character applications rather than helping them improve on them shows those people that this may not be as warm or welcoming a group as they were hoping for, which, I believe, turns away much more members than the denial alone.

Some people want so much to validate their point that an approval system would improve the quality of the community but overlook the very fellowship and mutuality that makes a community what it is. Stop expecting the staff to do what you can do yourself, and stop expecting things to be imposed when they can simply be taught through mutual guidance. Damned if I say it but show a little love and compassion to one-another for once--you'd be surprised how far as human being that'll take us.

I'm just wasting my breath now, beating a dead horse--I know--but still, I feel it warrants being said.

 

[Jsc]

I question how many of you have actually roleplayed at sites with approval systems versus reflexively dismissed the idea as pure oppression. The fear that people would up and leave after getting their bio rejected is, in my experience, not substantiated in reality.

And this is the point where it becomes really really hard to consider talking back to you Immortus. Lol. Especially since it's obvious you will still attempt to campaign here even despite Staff already bunkered position. Still... Might as well try.

I've RP'd on three LOTR sites, two StarTrek sims, four SW sites, and one Harry Potter site since 2009. All had differing systems of 'Character Approval' and 'Profile Review'. Now. I can heartily say. Given that experience. That none of those systems gave me an emotional victory. Nor did they even attempt towards my personal education in writing. Now. Did they have pros and cons? Yes. All them did. They each did something well and each provoked something terrible. However, I am one hundred percent confident that not required bios to be 'Staff Approved' has been the most successful application I've ever experienced. Ever. Both physically and emotionally. Which gave me the confidence and the gusto to pursue my hobby into higher skill categories, daily.

I will never say that Profile Review cannot help. I will simple suggest that they will never be the optimal experience.

 

[Darth Immortus]

If the problem is what can be interpreted as "crappy" bios, the simple solution is to try and converse and commune with the person in question, and try to help them improve. Guide them.

This is literally exactly what an approval system does, yet you're against it.

I thought you ragequit this thread, btw.

I've RP'd on three LOTR sites, two StarTrek sims, four SW sites, and one Harry Potter site since 2009. All had differing systems of 'Character Approval' and 'Profile Review'. Now. I can heartily say. Given that experience. That none of those systems gave me an emotional victory.

I'm not going to take that experience away from you, but I will say that my experience has been the polar opposite of yours. 99% of the headaches I encounter while roleplaying happen on, you guessed it... no approval boards.

And yes Jay, I realize that the staff will not realistically alter their opinion based upon this thread alone. I realize that right now the Overton window is still shifted too far away from implementing bio approvals. I'm just interjecting my opinion and sticking to it. Surprisingly I've found a few who agree with me.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Darth Immortus"]

Well I'm a powergamer at heart. If there is a roof of magical prowess? I'm always running as fast as I can to get up to it. In StarTrek it was flying an Aventine Class. In Harry Potter, it was taming a dragon. In LOTR it was recovering the lost treasures of Gondolin and sailing to Valinor. As always, I would build a respectable character who could legitimately accomplish such grandiose tasks. And, as always, a Staffer would step in and ask me to just start from square one. Blarg! No. Not Ensign again. Or Hufflepuff apprentice, or Bree common man, or Jedi Padawan. Darn it all. It didn't matter what I did. Always with the grind. As if all the websites I joined were Korean MMOs with years-played to grind out rather than levels and experience points. Bleh. Status quo everywhere. Got old quickly. Especially emotionally. That all said? If you've had an opposite experience? Great for you man. We must be wildly different people. Lol. Which is a good thing in every way.

Cheers and happy hunting!

 

[Nyxie]

Bro, I "ragequit" this thread for civility's sake so that I wouldn't suxcumb to your attempts to instigate an argument with low comments lile that, cuss and rip into you in public and get banned.

You are so ignorant to the feelings and opinions of others, that you completely can't comprehend the difference between helping people improve an existing app and denying it from ever existing, telling them they cant even play without "getting it right" FIRST.

You're an elitist, and nothing more. I have been roleplaying for ten years, and have written theses and short novels. It doesn't mean a damn thonk if you have no heart and the inability to empathize with others who can't yet see writing in the scope that you or I may.

Now please stop quoting me and go reflect. In either event, I am done--for civility's sake and consideration for others with useful, productive input to this thread.

 

[Nyxie]

PS: i hate my phonr, lol....

 

[Darth Immortus]

You are so ignorant to the feelings and opinions of others, that you completely can't comprehend the difference between helping people improve an existing app and denying it from ever existing, telling them they cant even play without "getting it right" FIRST. You're an elitist, and nothing more. I have been roleplaying for ten years, and have written theses and short novels. It doesn't mean a damn thonk if you have no heart and the inability to empathize with others who can't yet see writing in the scope that you or I may.

First of all, I think you're taking this way too personal. I never attacked you personally, I just said that your argument made no sense. You seem to have an inability to separate your emotions from a discussion.

Secondly, you've got the completely wrong idea. As I've said. Having characters go through approval does not equate to people having to change their writing styles. Unless your writing style happens to be godmoding.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

Bro, I "ragequit" this thread for civility's sake so that I wouldn't suxcumb to your attempts to instigate an argument with low comments lile that, cuss and rip into you in public and get banned.

You are so ignorant to the feelings and opinions of others, that you completely can't comprehend the difference between helping people improve an existing app and denying it from ever existing, telling them they cant even play without "getting it right" FIRST.

You're an elitist, and nothing more. I have been roleplaying for ten years, and have written theses and short novels. It doesn't mean a damn thonk if you have no heart and the inability to empathize with others who can't yet see writing in the scope that you or I may.

Now please stop quoting me and go reflect. In either event, I am done--for civility's sake and consideration for others with useful, productive input to this thread.

"I'm, like, a writer, man."

A basic level of literacy would do nothing to hurt the quality of the community. I think the reason it offends you so greatly is because you have concerns you might not make the cut.

A well-placed fear if you ask me

 

[Nyxie]

Not in my entire post did I mention anything from my own perspective or use myself as a subject. Stop trying to twist and turn things, even if you are doing so inadvertently.

I believe I asked you nicely not to continue to try and involve me in a debate with you any further, and you have proven how very little you actually care. *thumbs up*

And, [member="Natasi Fortan"], you know those ridiculous viral videos online taken on cellphone cameras of people fighting physically over menial things, whilst shouting "WORLDSTAR!" That's you right now.

An approval system has nothing to do with a "basic level of literacy," it has to do with specific individuals not understanding that people don't like rejection or disapproval (which it literally, by the very meaning of the word, is). I can't tell you anything that hasn't already been said countless times in this thread by others. People like positive reinforcement over negative, and would much rather get their feet wet with their speculatively sub-par app than be denied outright. There is a huge difference between the two. It is this very lack of understanding I referenced in my last post, which seems to fly straight over your head. It has nothing to do with me. You must not be understanding how the average individual thinks and feels, both as a new member and an individual.

No more quotes. No more tags. One more time and it's taken to administration.

It's over. Continue your debate but do not continue to involve me in it or prod for a rise.

PS: Some people don't have a level of education to meet most sites' approval standards. Some have a mental impairment or disability. Some are just young and looking for a place to grow. Some of those people are friends and family. You say I am emotionally invested; would you like to know why? It's your limited frame of mind that alienates those people from ever feeling like they belong in those communities. You've never going to get it either because if no one else has enlightened you to how that hurts the community yet, then I certainly never will. Good day, and good roleplaying.

(edit)
[member="Darth Immortus"] - I apologize if I've become rude or aggressive with you. It's become a debate that's turned washed out and redundant because we cannot see eye-to-eye with one-another's arguments on the subject, and I should not let that turn to hostility. I do just want to say that maybe in the future, you try to avoid saying things like calling someone's arguments crazy talk or telling someone that they "ragequit," or bringing personal involvement into a debate, because--especially on the internet--those kinds of choices in words are almost always taken or used in an instigating way. That's just how the internet is, I get it. Still, it should be avoided. ^^;
Sorry, just came back from a Slipknot concert, lol.

 

[Jsc]

*sigh* ...Since you're going to read this anyway. Threatening other members with Administrative Action is not classy. Especially when they are using the Forum features as intended. Nor does it enamor you to the Staff. Immortus hasn't done anything except reply to your comments. That's seriously just it. So maybe it's time to just walk away, get some fresh air, and stop trying to get the last word in. It's not gonna help. Trust me.

Also. Somebody needs to buy me a pizza. I'm freaking hungry right now.

 

[Nyxie]

(edit) Eh, screw it, you're right. I'm out. ^^

 

[Jsc]

Avadreia might be a sexy babe with mad skills. But yeah. She can be a bit touchy in her own way. The trick is to see that she means well and wants you to succeed. Just... Usually by not being so loud or childish. Like me!

Buy her lunch sometime and you'll see how awesome of a writing partner she can be. *wink wink*

 

[Natasi Fortan]

This is a pretty good example of why approval is a good idea, actually. Someone who can't seem to wrap their head around the idea that the whole point of a character approval system is to set a standard can't be expected to reason through why we would want a standard in the first place. Obviously this unnamed person has been subjected to unlimited 'positive reinforcement' over the course of their life and therefore has never been confronted with the reality that their arguments aren't particularly well-reasoned, nor are their explanations at all coherent, and rather than address the issue like a grown-up has resorted to petty tone-policing, mic-dropping, pants-wetting tantrums at the very response to their post.

If you prefer not to be involved in the discussion any longer then by all means see yourself out. You don't get to shield your ridiculous assertions simply by saying you'd prefer not to be involved. This is a discussion forum, you see, and discussion is... well, it would take too long to explain to you, but suffice it to say that no, I do not intend to let your argument sail by simply because you say so. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. I'm not trying to force you to respond or to be involved but neither can you force me not to respond. If you choose not to be involved, then don't be involved.

An approval system has nothing to do with a "basic level of literacy," it has to do with specific individuals not understanding that people don't like rejection or disapproval (which it literally, by the very meaning of the word, is). I can't tell you anything that hasn't already been said countless times in this thread by others. People like positive reinforcement over negative, and would much rather get their feet wet with their speculatively sub-par app than be denied outright. There is a huge difference between the two. It is this very lack of understanding I referenced in my last post, which seems to fly straight over your head. It has nothing to do with me. You must not be understanding how the average individual thinks and feels, both as a new member and an individual.

People don't like rejection. Well done on that observation. What it has to do with this conversation is a mystery, but I suppose I'll give points for stating something correct. But, much like your faulty reasoning in this thread, someone else's lack of ability has an effect on others. A person can wander in off the street and join any open roleplay, with absolutely no controls. There is no guarantee that the person respects rules, or can string together a sentence, or knows how to craft a story. It is not wrong to be exclusive, to say that this is what we expect from people who roleplay on this site, to guarantee respect for everyone's plotlines and character development and time. And it's not just everyone else's time, but the new person's time as well. If they want to write a character that is entirely unsuitable and will not work in the context of the board, isn't it better for them to know up front, in the form of a helpful administrator saying, "You know what, this has potential but this part here needs to be reworked because X, Y, and Z" than to jump in and get frustrated by the fact that no one wants to RP with them?

The argument here seems to be that there are two options: either accept or "YOU ARE BAD AND STUPID AND WRONG GET OUT BEFORE I BEAT YOU ABOUT THE HEAD WITH A ROLLED UP NEWSPAPER." That's not the universe we live in. To pretend otherwise is not just a deliberate misunderstanding of the issue but intellectually bankrupt.

And even if everything you said is true and correct (which it isn't, by a long shot, but I'm feeling generous), WHO CARES? If someone takes a critique so personally and gets butt-hurt that they're being asked to change their biography to state that they are not in fact the unknown child of Luke Skywalker and is a vergance in the Force, frankly we can do without that kind of presence. It will only strengthen the community in the long run to weed out the godmoders, powerplayers and mary-sues.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

Avadreia might be a sexy babe with mad skills. But yeah. She can be a bit touchy in her own way. The trick is to see that she means well and wants you to succeed. Just... Usually by not being so loud or childish. Like me!

Buy her lunch sometime and you'll see how awesome of a writing partner she can be. *wink wink*

Thank you, darling, your approval means the world to me.

Did I say approval? Sorry, I feel like I've triggered someone. Can I report my own post?

 

[Nyxie]

Someone who can't seem to wrap their head around the idea that the whole point of a character approval system is to set a standard can't be expected to reason through why we would want a standard in the first place. Obviously this unnamed person has been subjected to unlimited 'positive reinforcement' over the course of their life and therefore has never been confronted with the reality that their arguments aren't particularly well-reasoned, nor are their explanations at all coherent, and rather than address the issue like a grown-up has resorted to petty tone-policing, mic-dropping, pants-wetting tantrums at the very response to their post.

I am curious as to how many unnamed people there will be.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

You can say what and act out how you want, but it's never going to change the fact that there is no such policy and aren't any plans to ever establish one. Nothing else you said about me matters. *shrugs*

Yes, luckily for you, there is no system in place here to vet the quality of the writer. Unluckily for you, that does not (at present) prevent us from discussing it as an abstract topic of debate (which after all is the point of a discussion forum). The fact that it will never be implemented here doesn't change the fact that it can be a very valuable tool, just like the fact that it is used successfully in countless other environments doesn't change the fact that it is not the preferred method here. We all understand why you feel threatened at the very notion of it, but breathe easy and rest assured that no one here will ever ask you to have even a minimal level of quality and competence. After all, it wouldn't do to alienate anyone.

I'm not going to attempt to try to force the rest of your drivel into an argument that makes sense and is applicable to the topic at hand, because why should I do the job you're either ill-equipped or too lazy to do? Trying to explain this, even in a broad and straightforward sense, is like trying to explain the Pythagorean theorem to a banana.

 

[Hailyn]

It will only strengthen the community in the long run to weed out the godmoders, powerplayers and mary-sues.

And how does an approval system rid the board of this?

The factory and the codex are all approval-based and still receive reports on submissions and such that then get pulled or looked over. If someone is going to god-mod, powerplay, etc, they're going to do it regardless of someone stamping their bio or not. If you read my Bio you see very little history, and that's primarily how you would get around the entire issue of someone telling you "No."

And if your suggestion is, then, to require a backstory or extensive bio up until the character's "current time", then I will gladly suggest that you look elsewhere. It doesn't matter how good of a writer you are, or how successful of a roleplayer you might be, I personally detest having to give up any information of my character's IC stuff to people unless they want to write with me about it. I am not going to spend an hour or two out of my time to have to wait a day or two to have a bio maybe approved, depending on if the person looking it over isn't uptight about my bio at the point that it is written.

It should also be noted that both the factory and the codex are optional, thus nothing needs to be approved unless a report is filed and you are requested by an RPJ or Admin to submit it to either.

 

[Nyxie]

You don't have to force my "tone-policing, mic-dropping, pants-wetting drivel" into anything, for it to be true or accurate. Instead of calling it that, I made the topic into a poll, so that instead of being rude to one-another over a matter of personal opinion, we can be shown and obligated to accept the public opinion.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

And how does an approval system rid the board of this?

The factory and the codex are all approval-based and still receive reports on submissions and such that then get pulled or looked over. If someone is going to god-mod, powerplay, etc, they're going to do it regardless of someone stamping their bio or not. If you read my Bio you see very little history, and that's primarily how you would get around the entire issue of someone telling you "No."

And if your suggestion is, then, to require a backstory or extensive bio up until the character's "current time", then I will gladly suggest that you look elsewhere. It doesn't matter how good of a writer you are, or how successful of a roleplayer you might be, I personally detest having to give up any information of my character's IC stuff to people unless they want to write with me about it. I am not going to spend an hour or two out of my time to have to wait a day or two to have a bio maybe approved, depending on if the person looking it over isn't uptight about my bio at the point that it is written.

It should also be noted that both the factory and the codex are optional, thus nothing needs to be approved unless a report is filed and you are requested by an RPJ or Admin to submit it to either.

If you think having a character approval system does nothing to alleviate the problems I mentioned, any further discussion with you on the topic would be a waste of time. It is manifestly obvious how it would -- by laying down limits on powers, possessions, personality (or lack thereof) it would set a tone that demonstrated that reasonableness is the order of the day, which would discourage godmoding and powerplaying. Moreover, the percentage of idiotic submissions to the factory and codex would plummet if we corrected people at the door.

It's interesting that you suggest if I prefer that method, I should look elsewhere. Clearly I am willing to overlook my preferences in order to participate here -- but I ensure I interact with quality writers by being highly selective in the people I write with. I know that the people I write with will (more or less) respect my time, respect my characters, and respect the process, and I have a rule where I only write with bad writers once. It doesn't do anyone any favors to try to work around someone who doesn't care about crafting a decent story for all parties involved, only themselves.

But apart from that, if I was forced to write with the rabble as a condition of writing here, then I would absolutely take your advice and look elsewhere. It would make little, if any, difference to the board as a whole if I did. Likewise if a board requires you to demonstrate skills you either can't or (ahem) decline to show, the simple answer is to go somewhere that's more your speed, and it wouldn't make a difference on the board you're passing up.

None of this changes the fact that when implemented, the policy can (and has) proved useful and beneficial. That doesn't mean it's right for SWRP or should be implemented here -- that's not the issue anymore.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

You don't have to force my "tone-policing, mic-dropping, pants-wetting drivel" into anything, for it to be true or accurate. Instead of calling it that, I made the topic into a poll, so that instead of being rude to one-another over a matter of personal opinion, we can be shown and obligated to accept the public opinion.