Change the Ship Size restrictions for Individuals and Companies

[Laira Darkhold]

Since the Factory is currently undergoing changes I figured, might as well post a suggestion to remove one of the most pointless parts of the Factory's restrictions.

Currently, this table is used to determine what a Person, Low Tier Company, and Minor Faction can field as far as ships are concerned.

As you'll notice an Individual can field up to 500m, which sounds fine and dandy, but its kinda pointless. You see, anyone can make a Minor Faction, which can field 2000m PC captained ships. Also anyone could (up to the Factory Closing) make a T2 Company and field an 800m Ship, while a T1 Company is more restricted than an Individual at 400m maximum.

There is no review process for Minor Factions. I could literally just go click "Add Faction" type "Anythingsville" and add it to the registry, and therefore I can use a 2000m ship as suggested in this Codex Submission.

So my suggestion, rather than being MORE restrictive and suggesting Admins and RPJ's police Minor Factions, would be to be LESS restrictive and remove everything below that 2000m threshold. Individuals, Companies, and Minor Factions all have that nice 2km or below must be PC captained.

For or against? Why or Why not?

 

[Arage Bao]

I have honestly never understood the restrictions on ship dimensions and the sort.

Fleeting is such a niche component of Chaos, so it always seemed odd to restrict the dimensions to regulate the way that goes. And canon is filled with examples of individuals to small groups being in control of ships that should theoretically outsize their ability to control.

I have often argued that removing the limits would make a great deal of sense. Especially since Chaos is moving more and more into a deregulated state.

This seems to be a pretty reasonable middle ground that really just acknowledges how Chaos has operated with minor factions regardless.

So yeah, I support it for sure.

 

[Vilaz Munin]

I support this.

Never done fleeting or any ship interaction, but I don't understand the logic of having this rule. Shoulda been casted out a long time ago.

Daro and Orthus pretty much nailed it why this should be removed or less restricted.

 

[Gilamar Skirata]

The "logic" is that the amount of individuals required to run battlecruisers is so high that for individuals to own, staff, pay, and generally take care of that many people seems kinda crazy. If they did have those means they'd be running a planetary government/miliary (ie. a Minor Faction) or have a substantially large company (ie. T6 company) these entities aren't normally around to get down and dirty with the big boys in huge wars and battles that would require a steady stream of these warships, not to mention that the "cost" of a single Star Destroyer was more expensive than some entire star systems' gdp. So even then it wouldn't make a whoooole lot of "sense" for everyday blokes who aren't running a lucrative business or running a planet or system, or group of systems to own them. It makes the galaxy more believable when every bloke and their mum don't have their own personal fleet of billion credit warships mucking about.

Have to remember that Star Destroyers were ships meant to sometimes keep entire systems in line with battlecruisers and up holding single or sometimes multiple sectors on their own. That's the kind of firepower these ships are "supposed" to have.

But also its done so that being Major "has perks" besides playing in the map game.

That being said knowing why its done...

RELEASE THE FLOOD GATES

[member="Darth Orthus"]

 

[VildarnTentoria]

Why can’t we all just have fun with smaller sized ships for a while.

 

[Formorta]

Id rather not have things change, more so because even with these restrictions you still have people coming in and just randomly having massive star ships and doing stuff like bombing Korriban. Only other option I see is that if you do have a large ship but realistically could never hope to crew it you can have it on the minimum skeleton crew, but then said ship would be next to ineffective during combat.

 

[Captain Larraq]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, considering the changes being made to the factory, I support the idea of removing the restriction as well as removing the entire company system as it exists. Forcing writers to grind their way up to Tier X to unlock the ability to create starships of whatever size, plus restrictions on who can own and operate such ships, only really does two things. It forces people to grind away at the factory instead of simply making a specific trinket and then going to use it in a roleplay, and it encourages people to try to have the biggest object possible for the characters they write.

I'm of the opinion that these restrictions should be thrown out a window.

And after that, we should revisit the list of banned races for player characters.

I miss that guy that roleplayed a Dragon.

I also miss my Yammosk player character.

Weird characters are fun.

 

[Mercutio]

So, in essence, what all of you who are asking for it to be thrown out are saying is this:
A 2 day old writer account with a character that has only posted enough times to create their character
Should be allowed to have a war ship that is effectively game changing / turn the tide of any battle...

Yea, thats not asking for anyone to attempt to abuse the lack of restrictions at all.
Its begging.

As for the "Grind" as [member="Captain Larraq"] , spoke of: Brother, there has to be some reward for being active long enough to get up to Tier X dont you think?

And if they throw out the company system then whats to stop someone (Whether new or veteran of Chaos) from creating a character with the background of: "My Character financially backs the Jedi Order / Sith Empire. He provides them with all their ships and weapons and is effectively the Power Behind the Throne."

TL;DR

I have to agree with [member="Gilamar Skirata"]

There are rules and restrictions for good reason. Albeit some may come up from time to time that need tweaking here and there, but the Company System / Ship restrictions make sense so as to discourage God Modding and encourage activity.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

[member="Mercutio"]

You do realize they can still do that right? Like, nothing is stopping them from posting their character and then immediately making a 0 post minor faction.

 

[Captain Larraq]

So, in essence, what all of you who are asking for it to be thrown out are saying is this:
A 2 day old writer account with a character that has only posted enough times to create their character
Should be allowed to have a war ship that is effectively game changing / turn the tide of any battle...

Yea, thats not asking for anyone to attempt to abuse the lack of restrictions at all.
Its begging.

This is a roleplaying forum where people write stories (hopefully collaboratively), not a DND campaign or an RPG / MMO. If someone wants to tell the tale of Admiral Fancypants and his adventures aboard the SS Mhadik, who rightly cares how big his ship is and why the kark should anyone force him to grind away at meaningless threads and spend weeks in the factory before he can do what he wants? Which is to tell the tale of Admiral Fancypants.

As for the "Grind" as Captain Larraq , spoke of: Brother, there has to be some reward for being active long enough to get up to Tier X dont you think?

There is. It's called respect.

And if they throw out the company system then whats to stop someone (Whether new or veteran of Chaos) from creating a character with the background of: "My Character financially backs the Jedi Order / Sith Empire. He provides them with all their ships and weapons and is effectively the Power Behind the Throne."

Why on earth would you want to stop a WRITER from creating a character and then writing about what that character does?

That's what you do on this forum.

You make characters.

And you write about what they do.

Not every story has to start at the beginning and not everyone WANTS to start their character's story from the beginning.

 

[John Locke]

This is a roleplaying forum where people write stories (hopefully collaboratively), not a DND campaign or an RPG / MMO. If someone wants to tell the tale of Admiral Fancypants and his adventures aboard the SS Mhadik, who rightly cares how big his ship is and why the kark should anyone force him to grind away at meaningless threads and spend weeks in the factory before he can do what he wants? Which is to tell the tale of Admiral Fancypants.

Nothing is stopping them from doing that, and telling that story. The factory is entirely optional, the only time you need to go there is for PvP, and that makes sense. If I'm going to fight your ship, I want to know how powerful it is, what systems it has. So if you want to tell the story of Admiral Fancypants, the warlord who isn't tied to any faction you can, you just can't PvP with him, without your opponent's approval of your ship. But how can you be an Admiral without a significant force backing you?

People seem to get so tied up in the factory, but it's not a necessity, it's only there for when it needs to be. I love it, and I love subbing thing, but if you just wanna RP a story go right ahead, no-one is going to stop you.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

I support this proposal.

 

[Ras'kala'han]

I'm supportive of continuing this trend of relaxing restrictions - we saw that doing this with Master rank had very few negative consequences. Ultimately, granular mechanical ship size matters very little when it comes down to how much punch a ship packs in actual combat, and I feel like it would be completely good to soften the focus on nitty-gritty mathematics.

 

[John Locke]

I'm supportive of continuing this trend of relaxing restrictions - we saw that doing this with Master rank had very few negative consequences. Ultimately, granular mechanical ship size matters very little when it comes down to how much punch a ship packs in actual combat, and I feel like it would be completely good to soften the focus on nitty-gritty mathematics.

I would disagree, the size of a ship is very important when it comes to how much punch a ship packs in combat. A 500m ship will pack a significantly smaller punch when compared to a 2km ship which packs a smaller punch than a 5km or 10km ship. I don't disagree that the consequences might not be dire, but lets be fair, [member="Darth Vesper"], there is a lot of difference when it comes to combat.

Like Gil said, star destroyers are meant to be "ships capable of destroying entire star systems with their heavy firepower" (x) This is an awesome level of firepower to put in anyone's hands, and at the same time, a massive logistics load to manage. On Chaos we set those same Star Destroyers at 2000m. There is no way that your average individual is able to sustain control of the ship, or supply it by themselves. Like Gil said, only the largest corporations or governments can do that. And I think only Major Factions, governments that span multiple star systems can have more than 1 Star Destroyer.

So if we come back to the example from [member="Captain Larraq"], Admiral Fancypants. If he wants to tell the story of the admiral just flying around with his crew fighting NPCs then no-one is going to care. But the moment other PCs get involved, he might be asked to sub his ship to the factory, and needs to explain where his funds and crew are coming from. As I said before the factory is entirely optional, until it isn't. As people have pointed out, it's very easy to form a minor faction, and if Admiral Fancypants did that he can fly around in his ship to his hearts content. But just the one SD.

The Minor faction system is an issue for another time, but given how easy it is to justify and let people tell their stories there is no reason to change the rules. If you want to just tell a story then go ahead, I can't think of one person I know who is going to complain about that. Get a few friends and blow up all the NPC pirates you want. But if you want to fight other people, the rules we have exist to balance that system. There is no way an individual person has the resources to match a minor faction's fleet. Just as there is no way a minor faction can match the fleet of a major faction. By relaxing the rules on ship size you're adding an element of chaos into PvP that can be fraught enough as it is. If anyone can turn up with a Stardestroyer, then you're going to see a proliferation of them in PvP. Now I get that fleeting is a part of the play enjoyed by a small element of the community, but the way the rules work now, people can play with their big ships, they just can't attack other people with them without grounding their ownership in something explainable, which really isn't that hard to do.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

[member="John Locke"]

There is no way an individual person has the resources to match a minor faction's fleet.

The point of this is, why make that 1 person jump through a hoop and force them to make a Minor Faction (Which can consist of a single Individual Writer) in order to do so. It seems unnecessary and arbitrary given the rules regarding Minor Factions.

If anyone can turn up with a Stardestroyer, then you're going to see a proliferation of them in PvP.

Everyone already can. Nothing is stopping them. It takes 0 effort to make a Minor faction to allow Anyone and Everyone to do so.

My point is, why restrict something so easily gotten around. Why bother policing and enforcing something that has a massive gaping loophole (That's almost always been there). If someone wants to run around in a freighter, they can and will. Nothing has every stopped them from doing so. If someone wants to run around in a Star Destroyer, it takes less than 5 minutes to set up and requires nothing else, so why force people to spend that 5 minutes? It doesn't make sense.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

I support this. As you already said, anyone can use the Minor Faction loophole. Besides that, people seem to be playing nice when it comes to ships and aside some minor invasion disagreements, I have not seen any complaints or grumbling regarding ships being misused, especially individual ones.

 

[John Locke]

[member="John Locke"]


My point is, why restrict something so easily gotten around. Why bother policing and enforcing something that has a massive gaping loophole (That's almost always been there). If someone wants to run around in a freighter, they can and will. Nothing has every stopped them from doing so. If someone wants to run around in a Star Destroyer, it takes less than 5 minutes to set up and requires nothing else, so why force people to spend that 5 minutes? It doesn't make sense.

You're absolutely right, it's easy to get around, and it does take around 2 minutes really to do. But what it creates is a story justification, why can I support a Star Destroyer, well that's cause I'm the leader of the Top Hat Pirates. 2 minutes isn't a big ask to create the justification that allows the RPs to continue more steadily. We all spend so much time on Chaos, is 2 minutes too much to spend on setting up a storyline that means that other people can look at it and see what they're working with, that makes other people happy? I mean this is a community RP site, and we're trying to tell a grand story about the galaxy and how it changes and rolls, this is just one of the ways we tell that.

You're right, it's super easy, but that's why it works. Because that way it sets a structure for us to RP in Chaos is very freeform, but every RP needs some rules to help create a cohesive whole.

[member="Darth Orthus"]

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

I make a new character and start a minor faction. Said faction only has one member - me. I sub a Star Destroyer and say it's affiliated with said faction. Then I create another minor faction and sub another Star Destroyer. Rinse, repeat. Admittedly at some point it will get absurd.



On a more serious level, as for proliferation of SDs, that's already happening, just look at how many big warships are habitually dropped into an invasion. It also does not matter because invasions are not judged on the basis of who has more and bigger ships. Or even on the basis of who has won the most fights.


Not so long ago, staff allowed people to choose their own ranks and start as Apprentice, Knight or Master. There was concern that the board would collapse due to being inundated with an endless horde of instant day one Masters who know every Force power that has ever existed in Legends/Canon plus every single D&D spell and what not. Board is still around and the feared crisis has yet to occur. The proposal in this thread does not seem more problematic to me. If anything less so because there are more space wizards than fleeters, especially serious fleeters who use big ships for more than fluff purposes.

 

[John Locke]

[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"]

You're not wrong, no one arguing the case for the change here is wrong, and if I gave the idea I thought that I apologise. I 100% do not think that it would cause a crisis in anyway. All I think is that in terms of telling a story, it makes sense to be able to point at the faction providing the backing to a SD.

The only reason I think we keep the current system is a storytelling one. With the limits on SDs anyway, as you say, it's doubtful a serious fleeter will be taken down by one more SD showing up, but I like to be able to look and say ahh that's who we're fighting now. If it's seen as a way to make it easier for the board to RP I'm not gonna argue, and will very happily build a SD base for my company.

 

[Ras'kala'han]

[member="John Locke"]

Telling stories that make sense, and taking actions in the fiction that are underwritten by a compelling logic, will always be done by good writers regardless of rules allowing them to do otherwise and will never be done by bad writers in spite of rules trying to dissuade them. The regulation that the we have, and the only one we really need, is our ability to choose which fiction to acknowledge.

Because of the new Force system - and technically even before it - powers like hyperspace-based Force Storms, Bendu-style weather manipulation, mass mind-control, and oversized Death Fields are all in the hands of any player, barring certain rules. The reason they aren't being overused is because the people who abuse them end up without roleplaying partners, because their writing doesn't make sense and isn't fun to play with.

If one player wants to man a 2000-meter spaceship, I say let them. There are infinite justifications for the slack being picked up - an NPC crew, or a special kind of A.I. technology that handles parts of flight automatically, or fusing into the bridge of your own ship with mechu-deru and interfacing it with your brain.

We should give people the tools they need to tell interesting stories, not take tools away for fear of what someone might do.

taking this opportunity to again plug lifting the restriction on Gree, Rakata, and Kwa technology