Armor Rating expansion

[Ellie Mors]

This was briefly discussed in the factory chat on discord, not much was hashed out or really brainstormed at length.

[member="Jorus Merrill"] brought up the idea of expanding the armor rating scale from just 1-10 to 1-15 or maybe 1-20.

Nothing has been set in stone about this idea, so I'd like to ask everyone whether they would be comfortable with expanding the rating scale (not unlike the way we expanded the speed scale for starships) while also asking for ideas and input on the idea to make it work.

A few ideas that were mentioned:

• Treat it as a 100% new scale, similar in manner to how we completely changed the speed & maneuverability ratings for starships. Current-10 (as in the highest on our scale) would still be extremely tough, but it wouldn't be a 15 (if we cut it off at 15) or 20 (i.e; 10 from current/old would not convert straight to the top).
• "Add" ratings 11-15 or 11-20 as ratings beyond the current 10 as more durable than what we currently consider class 10, with each of these ratings requiring armors to be largely cumbersome or heavy.

[member="Spencer Varanin"] [member="Jamie Pyne"] [member="Erich Arnstein"] [member="Kyros Fen"] [member="Tanomas Graf"] [member="Haytham Kaze"] [member="Gir Quee"]

 

[Cira]

Random pop in, but if these were to go in effect, I'd like the scales of 11-15 or 11- 20 to only be for Unique items.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Darth Vitium"]
Rather than add numbers, why not add armour values for how good it is against certain attacks?

That way one could clearly see how effective the armour is against say:

• Lightsabres
• Blasters
• Slugthrowers
• Melee
• Environment

Rated out of 10 as the current system is.

I think that's much better than adding numbers which would create a rush for people to sub mod their armours to higher levels.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

[member="Cira"]
Yeah, my idea included that.

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]
The idea I'd proposed included caveats again sub mod requests. Simplest and fairest way would be to specify that everything above 10 is restricted to Unique. That would stem the tide of sub mod requests. An additional stipulation about bulk would keep mod request volume way down as well.

Here's why I believe we need to simply add more range to the existing scale: it's become hopelessly distorted. We've addressed ship power creep in various ways over the years, mainly by increasing gun count standards tokeep things fair. We've never really addressed armor power creep. As a result, standard mass produced stormtrooper armor is around a 7-8 instead of a 5, and there are many, many approved light armors in the 8-10 range at high levels of production. Those are just two basic examples; there are many others. We can't go back and nerf everything, and we shouldn't make a whole new scale (with the shift to 20-point speed as a prime example of why that's a terrible idea).

If we open up the field by adding two to five more ticks, or even just one - 'turn it up to eleven' - we'll get a small influx of heavy armor subs that actually look like they're supposed to: bulky, unique, ultra tough. Bam, Factory armor ratings get their integrity back.

I like what you're proposing, but it's a solution for a different problem. It would also need more specificity re: melee vs. blunt trauma etc., but that's just detail work.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Jorus Merrill"]
I think though having broken down ratings would help address at least some of the problems with armour. If armour has a value of 8 it effectively has that against everything unless specified otherwise.


I do see what you're trying to accomplish though, I'm just not sure adding a top 'roof' of values will help much with that.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"] [member="Jorus Merrill"]
We could still do both

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Darth Vitium"]
You raise a good point.

 

[Gir Quee]

We could still do both

I like both ideas, though I wonder if breaking down ratings by different types should be optional but encouraged (sort of like listing weapons on ships even though there's an armament rating). The main reason I say this is that there are probably a huge number of potentially different damage types out there that may not be the easiest to categorize (as an example, consider sonic weapons).

 

[Ellie Mors]

I like both ideas, though I wonder if breaking down ratings by different types should be optional but encouraged (sort of like listing weapons on ships even though there's an armament rating). The main reason I say this is that there are probably a huge number of potentially different damage types out there that may not be the easiest to categorize (as an example, consider sonic weapons).

Of course, I'm just throwing around ideas !

Perhaps optional breakdown + expansion of rating thru 20?

 

[Cira]

having them be optional for the break down is better with the expansion of rating through 15 or to 20.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

If you're going to expand numbers, do it to 20 like all the ships.

However, we have to understand why we're expanding the numbers.

Are we suddenly saying that armour can be 150-200% tougher than previously, or are we expanding the old stuff to this new rating by multiplying it by two.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Are we suddenly saying that armour can be 150-200% tougher than previously, or are we expanding the old stuff to this new rating by multiplying it by two.

That's currently what we're discussing.

We could add a few more ratings above 10 and consider than tougher than 10 (without changing anything except saying there's now new ratings above 10 that are tougher than what we currently consider a 10), or we could make a whole new rating with a deprecated conversion from current to 20-point scale (i.e; An armor quality 10 pre-20 point scale would not equal a submission post 20-point scale approved with armor rating 20).

I think maybe just adding higher ratings would work, per the add 5 or 10 more rating points, as tougher qualities.

That doesn't mean become lax on armor ratings from 10 & below, adding the new ratings is to ensure the highest armor quality is not being devalued by constant attempts to game the system. (which will no longer be possible pending the other armor rating + production proposal I made).

I also don't believe we actually quantify what armor ratings mean, armor rating 10 doesn't mean it's 5x more protective than armor rating 2, we don't do that.

 

[Allyson Locke]

My question is how will this play out with armor sets that are marked 10 and in that form of the factory they were considered the strongest. If we extend the numbers past 10 I feel like we are running into what is going on in star ships. Is there a way to maintain the scale and properly show the strengths of the armor ? I don't want to make this overly complicated since armor is something that is very consistent in the factory


Also with the approval of your other armor suggestion, does this nullify this proposal? [member="Darth Vitium"]

 

[Ellie Mors]

My question is how will this play out with armor sets that are marked 10 and in that form of the factory they were considered the strongest. If we extend the numbers past 10 I feel like we are running into what is going on in star ships. Is there a way to maintain the scale and properly show the strengths of the armor ? I don't want to make this overly complicated since armor is something that is very consistent in the factory
Also with the approval of your other armor suggestion, does this nullify this proposal? [member="Darth Vitium"]

In a way, the unique proposal solves the same problem, it just gives older submissions with higher production a bit of an unfair advantage. The idea behind bumping this up, if only by 1, is to make the submissions with rating 10 at higher production less valuable. But I am fine with scrapping this proposal if it isn't a feasible change.

 

[Allyson Locke]

[member="Darth Vitium"]

I think it would be better if we do the unique proposal and keep this on the back burner. Thoughts?

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Spencer Varanin"]
That's okay with me.

 

[Ellie Mors]

This can be discussed with a new thread in the future. Moved to the factory judge archives as this discussion has ran its course.