A Thought On NPCs

[The Red of Sinner]

So I had a thought, and if you haven't realized it yet, I really like NPCs. This is a RP(G), NPCs are crucial, I also like controlling small armies. So...why do some people get so annoyed about NPCs in skirmishes and invasions? I can't answer that, without opinionating something less than friendly. I can say, though, that for those looking to figure out how to become a better writer....or just to spice up the threads...make use of the Codex, and make NPCs. When you write, include your NPCs too. Make locations. Build them, and create small animals that can bring some zing to the thread. Make commandos, have your PC doing something while your commandos are doing something else. Essentially you're playing X amount of characters at once...but you've been give. Permission to do on a scale that is reasonable.

When I write, Romeo is always with Celty (his second in command admiral) and Commander Ryes (his second in command captain) along with his Drakons and Gundan. In some shape they are always with him. I like to think on it as Romeo has responsibilities now, it wouldn't be reasonable for him to the write I wrote (lone wolf) like I used to. He's matured, he's growing up, he getting powerful. Essentially the more power you gain the less you yourself actually fight (sometimes)

So think about this, think about how much your NPCs matter. Make a sub, go have fun in a spec ops thread

 

[Jsc]

why do some people get so annoyed about NPCs in skirmishes and invasions?

Well. There is no accounting for taste. So NPC as much as you want, (go crazy really,) until your writing partners check you. Then remember it's just hobby writing. No biggie.

For Invasions. Follow the FAs Invasion rules. Easy as pie.

 

[Hailyn]

NPCs are side-side characters. No matter how important they are to any situation, they are still expendable.

 

[Audren Sykes]

Some people enjoy the use of NPCs, some don't. For some threads they add value, other threads just get cluttered by them. I've been a part of invasions where NPC fleets are wielded by both sides to great benefit. Those threads, however, don't get forty or more posts in a day; if that were to happen, it would be impossible to keep up.

When it comes to this place, it doesn't seem like NPCs are going to make or break most threads. If you want to use them, make some threads oriented around squad-based tactics or get involved in some where it makes sense. Ditto with fleets. When there are people who want to focus on the PC-side rather than NPC-side though, it's really not worth putting up a fight about it.

My two cents, anyways.

 

[Hailyn]

Personally, I dislike the name-less NPC mentality that people have. They procure a number of NPCs, none of which have any importance to a particular story, and proceed to use them en-mass as if they were an amalgam of minds in one. If you are going to write an NPC, then realize first and foremost that an NPC is a Non-Playable Character - this means it is not controlled by the person writing the story as an extension of their own player, or character in the context of Chaos.

This means you should be writing each NPC as their own character, which is why I absolutely despise large multi-squad writing involving hundred upon thousands of NPCs being used without names or faces. I don't mind a vague mention of an army fighting in the background, but nobody should ever be writing the entire army themselves, not unless they are going to put the effort in to make the hundreds of NPCs just as relevant as the 2 or 3 NPCs written by someone else that has given them personality and attachments to their own character.

The reason SW wars and other fictional novels are won by single persons or groups are not because of flawed writing - it really isn't when you take a step back and understand the flow of the story from A to B - but because no matter what situation you are in, during a war, there is no head-on collision between Army A and B that results in the win for A or B without major events that happen because of person A or B. Yes, you might overlook them because you may not think that A or B are relevant to the battle as a whole, but if you removed that victory or loss, could you, without a shadow of a doubt, claim that A or B would still have won the war? No? Exactly.

Skirmishes and wars are not won by thousands of men aimlessly shooting at each other as one cohesive, mindless, group that acts on logic alone, they are won by decisive victories accomplished often times by a handful of people supported by those thousands, sometimes ending because of the death of a single person - be it a King or not.

 

[Boethiah]

I'm going to assume this has to do with the Invasion of Ziost.

The reason why the NPC rule was brought forward was because we wanted to make the objectives as simple as possible. I don't believe invasions are about complicated objectives and as much as I like to experiment I found that PvP was the most reasonable objective for a few reasons.

A.) Writers only have to communicate with those they're dueling. They don't have to worry about everything else going on. This makes it easy to isolate issues without it affecting everyone involved.

B.) There's not much to it, you don't have to focus on anything in the long run. You're having a story with another writer and your character may lose and they may win, that's it. What matters is how you write the story and follow up from there.

C.) People can go at their own pace. If you're a slow writer you can find someone who also posts more slowly. If you want to have things be fast-paced, you can. There's a lot more leeway when you're writing with only one or two other people.

Looking at the invasion, I feel like it's been successful thus far. Despite people having duels, they're not isolated in-character; a good example is someone's padawan got captured in a separate duel and now he's going after her. They didn't have to focus elsewhere but the story still continued.

As far as NPC go, I feel like they complicate things too much when they become a focus point. You have a lot more to think about and it complicates the objective. How do you judge NPC? Is it based on how many are killed, or how much damage they do overall? It's a lot easier to tell who won when it's just two people than to account for ever single NPC being used an invasion.

I have no problem with NPC in general, and nothing's stopping two writers from agreeing in a duel to let their NPC do the talking... Just no one is being forced.

Hope that helps.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

Nah, the dislike of NPCs seemed a thing a long time before this, but ill bite Anja.

Don't bring NPCs if you have that hard of a time keeping up with them.

If you do, I (assume) don't want to (assume) that their out and around shooting when it has not been written as so. Specifically if their subbed, and have plenty of threads they are in doing action.

So as to the statement that wars are won by a handful of people...how much is a handful? 20? 50? 100? In Star Wars, yes we see that Luke, along with Leia, Han, and Chewie, won the civil war, but we seem to forget that Lando, a group of Bothans, and Rogue One as a whole, Ewoks, along with the Rebel Fleet won the war. An army won the war.
We, looking at Chaos as a whole, are in a time similar to that of The Old Republic. Hundreds and Hundreds of Jedi fighting Hundreds and Hundreds of Sith. Unfortunately you can't compare the British Army, or the Chinese army to the army of the Republic and Empire. They have multiple worlds with trillions, upon trillions of people on those worlds. All of Earth's army compared to the military might of the Republic alone would be dwarfed. So in some form of realism with these statistics in mind, a "handful" of people probably isn't the same amount any longer.
A "handful" has now become an army compared to what these singular, unique people have to deal with.

Sure you could say that Darth Dark won the invasion as he single handedly defeat Master Light, but then...what about the Agent that was running around splicing stuff open? Gathering data while Soldier was gunning down opposition to gain Sith superiority on the ground? Did they not win the war too? What about space? How did said Sith get planetside? Here one person controls a NPC fleet against another NPC fleet, and they seem to have no problem communicating that these 1500+ meter ships along with their support 500+ meter ships and 100s of star fighters did this and that.

Fleeting is simply Battleship with much more details.

Ground Warfare is Risk with much more details.

Regardless of all this, as a writer we should seek to better our skills to tell a story. We should seek to increase our characters' depths as individuals. If one writer doesn't like NPCs for such and such reason, albeit they are good reasons to sole extent, the rest of those involved shouldn't be hindered in their ability to write a story because a handful of writers do not like it.

Of course, I don't expect a single person to be controlling MILLIONS of clones, but surely 2000(give or take) is NOT that much compared to fleeting.

This is my ordeal on that part. This was more about just getting a more zing in writing

 

[Werdla Dardalab]

NPC's all day e'ryday <3

*goes back to writing with Buruk squad, likes her NPC's more than most people*

 

[Hailyn]

Nah, the dislike of NPCs seemed a thing a long time before this, but ill bite Anja.
Don't bring NPCs if you have that hard of a time keeping up with them.
If you do, I (assume) don't want to (assume) that their out and around shooting when it has not been written as so. Specifically if their subbed, and have plenty of threads they are in doing action.
So as to the statement that wars are won by a handful of people...how much is a handful? 20? 50? 100? In Star Wars, yes we see that Luke, along with Leia, Han, and Chewie, won the civil war, but we seem to forget that Lando, a group of Bothans, and Rogue One as a whole, Ewoks, along with the Rebel Fleet won the war. An army won the war.
We, looking at Chaos as a whole, are in a time similar to that of The Old Republic. Hundreds and Hundreds of Jedi fighting Hundreds and Hundreds of Sith. Unfortunately you can't compare the British Army, or the Chinese army to the army of the Republic and Empire. They have multiple worlds with trillions, upon trillions of people on those worlds. All of Earth's army compared to the military might of the Republic alone would be dwarfed. So in some form of realism with these statistics in mind, a "handful" of people probably isn't the same amount any longer.
A "handful" has now become an army compared to what these singular, unique people have to deal with.
Sure you could say that Darth Dark won the invasion as he single handedly defeat Master Light, but then...what about the Agent that was running around splicing stuff open? Gathering data while Soldier was gunning down opposition to gain Sith superiority on the ground? Did they not win the war too? What about space? How did said Sith get planetside? Here one person controls a NPC fleet against another NPC fleet, and they seem to have no problem communicating that these 1500+ meter ships along with their support 500+ meter ships and 100s of star fighters did this and that.
Fleeting is simply Battleship with much more details.
Ground Warfare is Risk with much more details.
Regardless of all this, as a writer we should seek to better our skills to tell a story. We should seek to increase our characters' depths as individuals. If one writer doesn't like NPCs for such and such reason, albeit they are good reasons to sole extent, the rest of those involved shouldn't be hindered in their ability to write a story because a handful of writers do not like it.
Of course, I don't expect a single person to be controlling MILLIONS of clones, but surely 2000(give or take) is NOT that much compared to fleeting.
This is my ordeal on that part. This was more about just getting a more zing in writing

The difference between ground and air is consolidation of actions. Fleeting involves the actions of the ships and a few key people/npcs, ground warfare consists of hundreds of people and their collective actions.

There is more detail seen in fleeting than the generality of ground combat numbering in the hundreds

 

[Jsc]

[member="Romeo Sin"]

Since you've guys have already touched on NPCs as flavor I'll skip that part. This time I'll go with: NPCs as contributing to a win.

Winning is open to interpretation on this website. Understanding that is key. Winning is also determined in steps. First as council between writers, then perhaps between Faction Admins, (Such as during Invasions,) then perhaps by Roleplay Judges. Now. Please note that all of these councils are, again, open to interpretation. What someone else values may not be what you value. And there is no point gripping about this. Not even about NPCs. This is our system. This is how we play.

Contrast. I play a lot of Starcraft 2. Winning is not open to interpretation in Starcraft 2. It is determined by math. Math that you leverage against your opponent. It's easy. It's brutal. It's consistent. And it happens differently every time. That. Is Starcraft 2. SW Chaos is not Starcraft 2. Here we do not have math. Here we have interpretation, imagination, compromise, collaboration, and handwavium.

One of these things is not like the other. And that's okay. Happy hunting!

 

[The Red of Sinner]

@[member='Braith'],

The difference between ground and air is consolidation of actions. Fleeting involves the actions of the ships and a few key people/npcs, ground warfare consists of hundreds of people and their collective actions. There is more detail seen in fleeting than the generality of ground combat numbering in the hundreds

I understand that, but when those hundreds are divided into divisions of smaller numbers, its much easier to control a group of NPCs.
Say you have 1000 troops.
Bob takes 1st division of 150
Joe takes the second of 150
Katie takes the next and so on so forth.
The numbers have been lightened and its much easier to describe the actions of 150 then 1000 as a whole.

Since you've guys have already touched on NPCs as flavor I'll skip that part. This time I'll go with: NPCs as contributing to a win. Winning is open to interpretation on this website. Understanding that is key. Winning is also determined in steps. First as council between writers, then perhaps between Faction Admins, (Such as during Invasions,) then perhaps by Roleplay Judges. Now. Please note that all of these councils are, again, open to interpretation. What someone else values may not be what you value. And there is no point gripping about this. Not even about NPCs. This is our system. This is how we play. Contrast. I play a lot of Starcraft 2. Winning is not open to interpretation in Starcraft 2. It is determined by math. Math that you leverage against your opponent. It's easy. It's brutal. It's consistent. And it happens differently every time. That. Is Starcraft 2. SW Chaos is not Starcraft 2. Here we do not have math. Here we have interpretation, imagination, compromise, collaboration, and handwavium. One of these things is not like the other. And that's okay. Happy hunting!

Of course, I understand that, but some of us do put some form of math into, we do put a little strategic thought into it, and because their NPCs and their not named NPCs, people like to handwave that it doesnt matter when some of us spent a good hour writing that post that details what our NPCs did. Sure NPCs dont when wins here, they shouldn't be the SOUL thing that does, but they should matter more than some of us give credit. Right?

Handwavium is not always a good thing.

 

[Azula Tindara]

You've successfully ignored all points made so far, whilst outlining that NPCs aren't used because some people aren't good enough writers to keep up with them and are holding others back.

Top work.


I think breaking ground battles or fleeting, into a series of 1v1 or 2v2 skirmishes would make things much easier to follow.

No one likes trawling through 4-8 posts and trying to sort out all the individual actions that need responding to and damage taking. Nothing to do with the quality of writer.

 

[Jsc]

but they should matter more than some of us give credit. Right?

In a perfect world.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

You've successfully ignored all points made so far, whilst outlining that NPCs aren't used because some people aren't good enough writers to keep up with them and are holding others back. Top work. I think breaking ground battles or fleeting, into a series of 1v1 or 2v2 skirmishes would make things much easier to follow. No one likes trawling through 4-8 posts and trying to sort out all the individual actions that need responding to and damage taking. Nothing to do with the quality of writer.

Then dont do..whatever it is you call yourself doing. Problem solved. I dont know what youre trying to attempt but I know a 1v1 or a 2v2 with npcs is quite easy to keep up with. Much easier than a Sith Lord throwing lighting and dark shadows at you along with an undead army, and you're the only target these things are aimed at.

Clearly my last post did not state about the opposing writer's ability to write, but their simple handwave tl;dr one post genocide when the other person poured real effort into their post.

1v1s and 2v2s get lost ALL the time in invasions/skirmishes, you have you to do a little digging to find them. so this trawling is something that is already a thing that happens. If anything, let the Generals worry about the NPC armies. Like how Admirals worry about the capital ships while the others dog fight it out.
Thats a simple fix.

In a perfect world.

What is your definition of perfect? Cant a man just get a hug!!!

 

[Kal'n Drasco]

Reading through these posts I'll simply leave whats been said before alone and state my own opinion.

Based on my personal experiences RP'ing I find that a lot of the time people tend to use NPC's as a hammer. Writing skill aside, the essence is generally "Well, I've got X amount of troops so I clearly have the advantage." I have no experience on this site with mass battles, not yet at least. So I can't speak to any individuals simply trying to win through a numbers game.

I feel that in general, not always mind you, but in general NPC's detract from the hero's of the story. If they are used or flavor, then fantastic. Personally, if NPC's are agreed on ahead of time by the writers than that's all that matters. But if someone shows up at engagement with XXX amount of troops because they 'always' travel with their forces than that's just poor sport on their part.

Then again, I've always been a fan of working things out with people ahead of time and being like 'OH MAH GAWD WOULDN"T IT BE SOO COOL IF SPOCK SHOWED UP AND THEN HARRY DRESDEN BATTLED HARRY POTTER WHILE BATMAN FLEW BY ON A PEGICORN?'.

Edit: Pegasus + Unicorn = Pegicorn.

 

[Quietus]

I've always loved the use of NPCs that are used as support characters for particular roles in particular story arcs. I have several subbed NPCs for Lorelei alone, and several more unsubbed NPCs for my other various characters. NPCs are a wonderful way to add flavor to your threads, but they shouldn't take center stage to your main character.

At that point they've become a PC - which has actually happened to me. I've developed NPCs to the point that I like the character enough to make it a full PC.

Vicious, vicious cycle.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

Npcs shouldn't take certain stage, I don't feel like they take away from the hero's role either. More so, it's how your character commands them, how he uses these npc forces that matters. Troops follow orders, orders comes from officers, stupid orders come from stupid officers and a that's how soldiers die. Jedi were generals, I feel The Clone Wars shows just how strategic a Jedi could be. npcs are much better suited for PvE. PvP is fun, but if no ones interested in PvP what about PvE? I find PvE better to build story arcs rather than PvP.

PvP already is cluttered and sometimes hard to keep up with.
Npc submissions help keep people from handwaving troops into existents.

Also many, many Jedi and Sith were followed by military forces. Anakin was almost always with the 501st and that's why they became Vader's Fist.
It's not in bad taste for a character to have a small batallion among him/her when you've moved up that far in the ranks that you now command a portion of an army...that's just what happens. Caedus was around the G.A.G. Constantly, Sidious had guards at all times. NPCs don't have to be a small army, it can be commandos, two friends, regardless of how many NPCs can do alot more than just PvP, and overwhelm a single character.

I have so many forces because Romeo isn't a lone wolf anymore, he's become part of something more, he has more things on his plate. People now want to follow him, want to be part of what he is. They trust him, their loyal to his ideals.

If you don't want NPCs in an invasion, fine dont, the question has been answered, but that wasn't the soul purpose of the original idea. It's Npcs as a whole together. Their amazingly amazing.

 

[Hailyn]

[member="Romeo Sin"]
You speak of NPCs, in terms of their significance to the story, as sub-par in relation to a regular character, then go on to say that they should be included throughout wherever one goes if they're in a position of power - something I disagree with, specifically because of the people you mentioned (in reference to the latter, though I don't think all NPCs are worthless). If an NPC isn't named, then, yes, they have the same importance as the nameless clones that followed Anakin/Vader. These are the NPCs that should play the part as random soldiers who run out on the front lines to meet other nameless NPCs (or in some cases PCs who want to rush ahead and show off, which is perfectly fine). But then you move into named NPCs, like the Sith Spirit of Silara Kuhn, whom is specifically designated for a non-combat role, or other "important NPCs" that may or may not be designated for combat, and you see the people who may cameo in certain threads or might accompany a character wherever they go. Named NPCs who are given respect by the person writing them will in turn be (usually) respected by other writers. But by putting all of them on the same playing field, whether intentionally or not, will more often than not result in another writer regarding them with the same respect as a nameless NPC (and I'm going to be blunt and explain that the reason nameless NPCs are unimportant is because their writer lacked the respect for them to give them the dignity of a name, which isn't a good or a bad thing because they serve a purpose of being "fodder") and treating them just as lowly.

If your goal here was to have other people treat NPCs with more respect, perhaps it would be a good idea to step back and see how you're treating your own troops. Are you making them seem important not only to the situation (simply describing them as skilled and such doesn't mean much - a padawan can state the same thing, and it doesn't mean it is true) but also to your character and the story? Are you actually spending the time to describe that NPC (singular) in more than just the clothes on their back(if even that)? The more effort you put into making it clear to the person you are writing with that these NPCs are important to your character, the more that other writer will respect the actions of those NPCs and their 'lives' in general.

Also, to be clear, NPCs in all instances are their own characters - they are not tools, they are not expendable limbs - so they should make their own decisions. When I say an NPC is mindless, I don't mean you're simply describing an entire army or troop as doing one single set of actions, I mean that said NPCs aren't being written with personality - they're like drones that you just direct to a location and say they did x with no description of how they feel, what it was like doing such, or even a peak into their heads. Although they aren't your character and shouldn't have the same focus as your character, if you're going to put the time into writing an NPC and want them to be important as you describe some of the named NPCs that travel with you, then they should be fully written just like your character, only with less emphasis on them compared to you.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Romeo Sin"]

Who are you talking to?

 

[Kuryr]

[member="Braith"]

Well said

[member="Romeo Sin"]
The point made by Braith is the truth at least for the Star Wars universe. Most troopers/admirals/anyone not a hero character are expendable in the long run. If you just look at Clone Wars for the example, there are maybe 8 named clone troopers, when I watch an episode with one of them in it I KNOW they will survive, except when one doesn't, then you feel the loss because you have connected with that character. Hundreds of clones die each episode, without any thought given to the fact that there are living, breathing beings. Yes NPCs can matter, without a doubt. I have subbed NPCs and I love them to death, and when I write them I convey their personality as much as possible to show that love.

Can they beat a PC in a fight, No. Can a PC run through them easily enough, Yes... But I have found that the few times I HAVE used them with others in a thread, they get respected because of the way I write them and how they interact with the other PC and with each other. Effort won't always be noticed and or respected, but if you put enough effort into it, you will find that other writers will respect your NPCs as much as you do. Because very few stories exist without a supporting cast. Just make that supporting cast matter. Cannon fodder will always be just that, and no NPC can cause damage to another character unless that character's writer allows it. Storm Troopers don't hit heroes and NPCs don't either.