Type 2.5 Kandosii-class Dreadnought (Kandosii = "Indomitable", "Ruthless", or "Awesome")

[Captain Larraq]

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Prow

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Dorsal

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Ventral

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Tilted - Dorsal

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Tilted - Aft

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Tilted - Ventral / Hanger Entrance

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Tilted - Aft / Port

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Image Credit: Fractalsponge.net
Intent: Taking the long road...

PRODUCTION INFORMATION
Development Thread:

• War Games | Mandalorian Clans Dominion Of Axxila & Bandomeer
• The Mandalorian Crusade | MC vs GR Invasion of Kashyyyk
• Eye For An Eye (Lords of the Fringe Invasion of Eriadu)
• Imperial March (OP Invasion of Atrisia)
• Suffer the Consequences of Your Actions (Republic/Mandos)
• Never say Nether: Reclamation (Mandalorian Dominion of Bimmiel)
• Capitalist with a Gun: Mandalorian Invasion of Roche
• Let us all bleed Red! (Mandalorians and Leaguers)
• Like a Phoenix

Manufacturer:

• Mandal Hypernautics (Copyright Holder, Primary Manufacturer, Sales Rights)
• ArmaTech (Royalties and Manufacturing Rights)
• MandalTech (Royalties and Manufacturing Rights)
• MandalMotors (Manufacturing Rights)

Model: Type 2.5 Kandosii-class Dreadnought
Affiliation: Mandalorian Clans, Closed Market,
Modularity: Ordnance Choices
Production: Minor
Material: Double-layered Mandalorian Steel Armor Plating, Alusteel Hull and Frame

DESCRIPTION
As a new generation of warships bring their might to bare upon the enemies of the Mando'ade, the ancient and venerated designs of days gone by begin to show their age. Ever mindful to the needs of the Mando'ade, the shipwrights and engineers of Mandal Hypernautics are again at the forefront of Naval science, marring modern metals and construction techniques with tried and true warship designs that have served the clans for centuries.

However, practicality and time constrains necessitate an alternative option to simply replacing the entire Mandalorian Navy. For that reason, the engineers of Mandal Hypernautics have worked with a number of engineers from rival companies to create a modular upgrade package capable of bringing existing warships up to current naval standards. Though these upgrades require an extensive retrofit and anywhere from a few weeks to a handful of months in drydock, the end result is far cheaper and quicker than simply manufacturing entirely new ships.

The retrofit process begins with entirely gutting the ship of its existing electronics systems and cabling, removing the reactor, hyperdrive, ion drives, sensor suite, communications suite, energy shielding emitters, and peeling off the outer armor of the ship. As new cabling and electronics are snaked throughout the hull of the ship, the previous reactor is replaced with a powerful Firestorm Isotope-5 Reactor, several banks of capacitors, and emergency power cells scattered throughout the ship. The previous hyperdrive is replaced with the advanced MandalTech 500 Series Hyperdrive (with royalty payments made to MandalTech for the use of their product) and the ship's new outer layer of armor is laid down. Far lighter than traditional Durasteel, the Mandalorian Steel armor plating can be double-layered with an underlay of Tenloss's TTAA-C (again with royalties paid to Tenloss for the use of their product) mesh to maximize protection without compromising the ship's previous speed and maneuverability. With the new armor in place, advanced ion thrusters are now secured to the aft of the ship as extra strength retrothrusters, maneuvering thrusters, and emergency thrusters are secured throughout the ship's hull.

At this point the ship's new shielding system is installed upon the hull, consisting of a dual layering of Retribution Ray Shields and Thermal Deflector Shields and backed up by ArmaTech's Aegis Receptor Nodes (royalties paid for use of their product). Followed swiftly by a new sensor suite, targeting suite, ECM and ECCM systems, upgraded point-defense systems, and a number of other proprietary upgrades to various electronics and software.

Though she possesses thicker armor plating than the original model, the lighter-weight metal used for the armor plating allows the Type 2.5 Kandosii to retain the same speed as the original model. With the advanced power supply and modern thrusters, the Type 2.5 Kandosii is capable of bursts of speed and agility that exceed the original model. And while the drastic upgrades to the electronics systems of the ship required minimal structural changes to the design, the expanded reactor and hyperdrive of the design did require that there be a moderate reduction in the overall hangar capacity of the ship. Where once the ship held eight massive Shadlaar-type Troopships as part of its hangar complement, these ships were instead moved to the external hull of the ship where several reinforced "landing pads" were incorporated. Landing directly against the steep port and starboard sides of the Kandosii, Shadlaar Troopships are capable of magnetically securing themselves to these reinforced landing pads which are in turn designed to project the Kandosii's shields over the hulls of these docked craft. The intent of the design being the capacity to allow the Kandosii to transport her personal escort of heavy troopships into a warzone at the rapid speeds her hyperdrive provides her with, where these individual ships then detach and begin deploying troops and war machines to a planet's surface while the Dreadnought engages hostile warships or bombards planetary targets.

(OOC Note: These Corvettes are 'purchased separately' in threads where fleets are restricted by total meters.)

In the updated design, the Type 2.5 Kandosii Dreadnought utilizes the same Flex-Tube launchers as the Alor-class Dreadnought, the Keldabe sports three separate batteries of four launchers. Each of these launchers is capable of holding four missiles of up to assault size and can fire up to all four missiles in a single salvo. Once dry of ordnance, these turrets can turn themselves perpendicular to their mountings to allow for a fresh payload of missiles or torpedoes to be loaded and readied to fire. Though the process takes a few minutes to complete, it allows for far more missiles to be fired in an extended engagement than possible with traditional missile tubes.

Each Flex-Tube Turret is capable of supporting Assault Concussion Missiles, Ram'or Assault Missiles, ACS Breacher Boarding Torpedoes, ACS Shipbreacher Missiles, Homing Cluster EMP Detonation Missiles, Advanced Homing Cluster Missiles, Homing Heavy Intruder Missiles, and a number of other options, including the infamous nuclear missiles used at the ancient Battle of Serroco.

The most tactically impressive design modification of the Type 2.5 Kandosii, outside of her vastly improved electronic support systems and armor plating, is her shielding system. Unlike the other ships in the Type 2.5 Retrofit program, the upgraded Kandosii is designed to both utilize the shield regenerating capabilities of the Aegis Shield Receptor Nodes as well as project its own impressive shielding onto other receptor-capable ships via a twin system of Aegis Shield Transfer Arrays that allows the Kandosii to support two receptor-capable ships at once.

Strengths

• Point Defense Traded for Improved Offensive Weaponry
• Thick, Double Layered Armor Plating
• Advanced, Double Layered Shields
• 2x Aegis Shield Transfer Array

Weaknesses

• No "Artillery" Range Weapons
• Point Defense Traded for Improved Offensive Weaponry

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Classification: Dreadnought (Star Destroyer/Dedicated Carrier)
Role: Planetary Assault Carrier
Length: 1,360 meters
Power Core Generator/Reactor: Firestorm Isotope-5 Reactor, Capacitor Banks, Emergency Power Cells,
Hyperdrive Rating: Class 0.5, Class 12 Backup
Minimum Crew: 6,000
Optimal Crew: 12,000
Passenger Capacity: 30,000 Marines
Cargo Capacity: 45,000 Tons
Consumables: 2 Years
Sublight Speed: Class 13 (Class 15 Reverse)
Maneuverability: Class 13

ARMAMENT
Armament Rating: 14
Point Defense: 05

• 12x Assault Grade Flex-Tube Launchers
• 16x Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
• 16x Super-Heavy Mass-Drivers Batteries (Heavy, Heavy Mass-Drivers)
• 16x Heavy Deck Cannon Batteries
• 8x ACS Energy Siphon Cannons
• 2x Heavy Tractor Beam Projector Batteries
• 2x Heavy Pressor Beam Projectors Batteries
• 4x Ra Defense Missile Turret Batteries

Defensive Ratings by Area

• Overall Value: 16 (18 vs energy)
• Armor Strength: 18
• Hull Integrity: 14
• Shield Strength: 16 (18 vs energy)
• Shield Regen: 16 (+2 if using Aegis or Energy Siphon)
• ECCM: 14

HANGAR

• Ten Squadrons
• External Docking for 8x Shaadlar-type Troopships (purchased seperately)

NON-COMBAT ATTACHMENTS

• Primary Retribution Ray Shielding
• Secondary Thermal Deflector Shielding
• Standard Long-Range Sensor Suite (HSI/DER/EPR/AS)
• Advanced TAT and BAC Suites
• Advanced Precision Hyperspace Navigation Computer
• Silkworm Hypertransit Package w/ HIMS
• Agrinium enhanced Tenloss TTAA-C
• 2x Aegis Shield Transfer Array
• Aegis Receptor Nodes
• SIS-129 Guidance Jammer
• PED-21 Distress Beacon
• Ion Shielding
• Cap Drains

Encrypted Communications Systems

• Comm Laser Suite
• Comm Unit Scrambler
• Comm Wave Descrambler
• Ion-Scrambler
• Subspace Transceiver
• Subspace Monitor
• IFF Transponder

Advanced Navigational Systems

• Multiple Ion Drives
• Extra-Strength Reverse Thrusters
• MH Overdrive Engines
• MH Maneuvering Thrusters
• MH Emergency Vector Thrusters
• Inertial Compensators
• ​Repulsorlifts

REFERENCE HYPERLINKS

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Kandosii-type Dreadnought (Chaos)
Kandosii-type Dreadnought (wiki)
Guardian-class Shield Support Carrier

 

[Captain Larraq]

Redacted

 

[Gir Quee]

RESEARCH REVIEW
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Star Wars Canon:
Pending initial review
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Starwars Chaos:
Pending initial review
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WITHOUT DEV THREADS
Pending initial review
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WITH DEV THREADS
Pending Initial review
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SUGGESTIONS
Pending Inital review

 

[Gir Quee]

Development Thread: War Games | Mandalorian Clans Dominion Of Axxila & Bandomeer The Mandalorian Crusade | MC vs GR Invasion of Kashyyyk

As with the Nebula-class, can you give me specific posts that relate to this submission?

Weaknesses No Long Range Weapons

Planetary Assault Carriers are currently listed as a subtype of the Dedicated Carrier template. As per that template, this needs to have a minimum of 2 weaknesses listed.

Again, I don't think that this quite balances out given the rest of the strengths listed. Obviously development posts will help with this to some extent, but the development slated for this right now appears to be unclear.

Sublight Speed: Class 13 (Class 15 Reverse) Maneuverability: Class 13

Again, exceptionally fast (this time with a +3 speed bonus) and also stacked with the overdrive boosts makes this potentially fast as a ship half its size. Please pick either the overdrive engines or the high speed. As with the Nebula, if you do go with the latter option, the exact amount will depend on the development behind this submission.

Length: 1,360 meters

Ten Squadrons

The standard carrier now has 10 squadrons at 1700 meters. If we are to linearly scale this down to size, we're looking at exactly 8 squadrons. Again, I'm potentially okay with 10 squadrons, but it will depend on the development and the other characteristics that you choose for this design.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Redacted. Will repost when not drunk.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Gir Quee"]

As with the Nebula-class, can you give me specific posts that relate to this submission?

The Invasion included some Republic Navy vs Mando Navy action.
The Dominion included some simulated "war games" involving Mandalorian warships.

This is also a fairly old design we are talking about and has been involved in a loooooooot of threads. This is "the" Icon Mandalorian Warship we are talking about. And I'm not even talking dedicated fleeting threads either. Like... people just show up for events in these things like Imperial Characters show up on ISD-II's.

Planetary Assault Carriers are currently listed as a subtype of the Dedicated Carrier template. As per that template, this needs to have a minimum of 2 weaknesses listed.

Again, I don't think that this quite balances out given the rest of the strengths listed. Obviously development posts will help with this to some extent, but the development slated for this right now appears to be unclear.

To be fair, Planetary Assault Carriers exist as a subtype of Dedicated Carriers because of this ship design. The original design is the absolute base model by which all Planetary Assault Carriers are compared. However, I absolutely agree that the ship needs more weaknesses listed. But, I tend to design my ships in a way that the strengths and weaknesses don't exactly create "flaws" so much as they help create an overall theme for the ship that assists writers in their roleplays. If you have some suggestions for additional weaknesses, I would be glad to hear them.

Again, exceptionally fast (this time with a +3 speed bonus) and also stacked with the overdrive boosts makes this potentially fast as a ship half its size. Please pick either the overdrive engines or the high speed. As with the Nebula, if you do go with the latter option, the exact amount will depend on the development behind this submission.

Speed and Maneuverability 13 are simply what exists on the original submission. I cannot justify reducing the speed value in these Type 2.5 submissions.

The standard carrier now has 10 squadrons at 1700 meters. If we are to linearly scale this down to size, we're looking at exactly 8 squadrons. Again, I'm potentially okay with 10 squadrons, but it will depend on the development and the other characteristics that you choose for this design.

In the same light as my stance on the ship's speed and maneuverability rating, I can't really agree to any further reductions in this ship's hangar capacity. As it is, I have already drastically reduced the hangar complement of most of these designs (to be fair, the old standards had far more starfighters than is reasonable) from the original submissions and have justified that alteration via an increased reactor and hyperdrive size. As a carrier, the Kandosii must maintain the 128 starfighters / 10 squadron count of the wookieepedia page and original submission in order to be competitive as a ship design, as a continuation of an iconic warship, and as a naval carrier. I have voluntarily reduced the "corvette complement" of the starship to a "purchased seperately" standard which greatly improves the overall balance of the submission.

However, according to the starship template, a squadron count of 10 is not the absolute maximum that a dedicated carrier can achieve. It is simply the maximum "average" that a 2,000 meter carrier can equip itself with and reasonably expect to not be required to write a development thread to justify.

So. At 1,360 meters, I can see the justification for additional development thread requirements in order to retain the current hangar complement of 10 squadrons.

So how many total posts would you like for this particular feature?

 

[Gir Quee]

[member="Captain Larraq"], you've made some fair points about this ship being a modification of a previously approved ship.

Development Thread: War Games | Mandalorian Clans Dominion Of Axxila & Bandomeer The Mandalorian Crusade | MC vs GR Invasion of Kashyyyk Eye For An Eye (Lords of the Fringe Invasion of Eriadu) Imperial March (OP Invasion of Atrisia) Suffer the Consequences of Your Actions (Republic/Mandos) Never say Nether: Reclamation (Mandalorian Dominion of Bimmiel) Capitalist with a Gun: Mandalorian Invasion of Roche Let us all bleed Red! (Mandalorians and Leaguers) Like a Phoenix

Can you link me to specific posts in here that are being used for development?



Again, the biggest problem right now is that I don't understand how this balances out. I can get behind the hangar capacity as is right now without development because of past submission and its apparent high use within the Mandalorian Clans.

However, when I look at the past submission, it seems to be much less well-armed and with reduced passenger count (the then judge states that it could have have 8,000 passengers max) compared to this submission.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Gir Quee"]

However, when I look at the past submission, it seems to be much less well-armed and with reduced passenger count (the then judge states that it could have have 8,000 passengers max) compared to this submission.

While the judge may have mentioned something about it, I see nothing in the sub itself about a crew size or passenger count. Though, to be fair and perfectly honest, the Judge in question was Cam. While she may have mentioned something about an 8,000 troop capacity at the time (and I can understand the approach she was taking), she was attempting to use the Passenger Complement of the Canon/Legends ISD-II (a "ship of the line") as the "standard" for how many passengers she felt that the Kandosii should be able to field. Which... well lets be honest... This is a Planetary Assault Carrier. Getting boots on ground is a major aspect of this ship's design.

The canon source material lists the Kandosii as possessing a crew complement of 10,000, a passenger complement of 30,000, and a cargo capacity of 45,000. When compared to similar troop-deployment focused ships from the Republic and Imperial side of things, you can best compare it to the Acclamator Assault Ship. At 752 meters long (roughly half the length of the Kandosii, though very fat and wide for a design of its type), it had a crew of 700, a passenger count of 16,000, and a cargo capacity of "320 speeders, 80 LAAT, 48 ATTE, and 36 Self-Propelled Heavy Artillery". The Acclamator II Assault Ship (the one designed for planetary bombardments) had a crew count of 20,141, a passenger capacity of 3,200 troops, and a cargo capacity of 10,000 tons.

So, all in all, when you compare the canon Kandosii to these two similar-themed Imperial/Republic ships, you get a crew/passenger/cargo capacity that may seem high when compared to an ISD-II or other similar warship, but which makes sense for a planetary assault carrier.

For this submission, I am borrowing the canon crew, troop, and cargo capacity from wookieepedia.



As far as the less "well armed" thing... At the time, putting assault concussion launch tubes on the thing at all was a huge deal. I remember Ayden being up in arms about it when it was first brought up. However, for this submission, I've gone through and tried to base the "math" of this thing's armament on the standards used by Draco's Sovereign-class Star Destroyer. He insists that that is the right total gun-count for "12" at 1,500 meters. So I figured something close to that would work as a "14" for a ship at 1,360 meters. I also tried to make the individual weapon selection(and point defense rating) appropriate for a ship... maybe 40% the size of an Alor-class Dreadnought?

Unlike traditional carriers that focus on operating as a long range "airfield" that starfighters can launch from and return to, as well as operating as a command and control platform, the Kandosii is designed to disgorge its complement of war droids, fighters, dropships, and troop ships above a planet and immediately get involved in the combat over the planet.

Can you link me to specific posts in here that are being used for development?

*cracks knuckles*

Like a Phoenix: (10-ish posts) Rygel Larraq and (shudders) Basaba Willamina go for a date on an ancient Kandosii Dreadnought that had been converted into a war museum (think Battlestar Galactica). Basaba wants the D. Larraq flees in terror and eventually gets ideas about making use of the Kandosii.

Let us all bleed Red!: (pretty much the entire thread) Darth Voracitos shows up in a 2km Battlesphere looking to surrender to the Clans. The clans react to the fact that he thought it was a good idea to show up in a Battlecruiser / Torpedo Sphere by bringing their own small fleet and capturing the Battlesphere. This naval action includes a Kandosii Dreadnought, a Skira Battleship, a pair of Nynir Heavy Frigates, a Nexus Cruiser, an Azalus Flak Frigate, an Ulur'uur Support Frigate, four Haran'uliik Light Frigates, two Jehavey'ir Assault Ships (canon corvettes), and a light starfighter escort.

Capitalist with a Gun: (unsure how many posts) The Mandalorians show up at Roche with a 20km fleet of warships and faced off against a 20km opposing fleet while the rest of the faction focused on fighting for Nickel One. Fleet included 2x Kandosii Dreadnoughts, 2x Concordia Dreadnoughts, 4x Keldabe Battleships, 1x Skira Battleship, and a number of supporting frigates, cruisers, and corvettes.

Never say Nether: (unsure how many posts) The Mandalorians show up to dominion/invade a planet with a fleet that consists of the Mythosaur Super Carrier and at least one Kandosii (and a bio-corvette).

Suffer the Consequences: (pretty much the whole thing) The Mandalorians, salty over unrestricted Republic expansion in the east, show up over Coruscant with a fleet of warships that includes the Mythosaur Super Carrier, two Kandosii Dreadnoughts, three Keldabe Battleships, three Kyramund Battleships, four Jehavey'ir Assault Ships, and a host of supporting cruisers, frigates, and corvettes. During the "negotiations" Larraq targets the Jedi Temple with the same Assault Concussion Missiles (from the Kandosii and Jehavey'ir) that were used to destroy the world of Serroco in canonical history. (which got Larraq yelled at)

Imperial March: (unsure how many posts) Ayden and friends show up to ring the Atrisians' bell. Larraq is in-system as an Atrisian ally with a 10km fleet (I think both sides had 30-50km total, but I don't remember) that consisted of four Kandosii Dreadnoughts and ten minelaying corvettes that had spent the last "several hours" deploying a minefield around Atrisia in preparation for the approaching Protectorate fleet.

Eye for an Eye: (Maybe 20+ posts between Larraq and Ayden) Larraq arrives with a small fleet as a Privateer/PMC to fulfill the role of ally in a LotF invasion of an OP world. Larraq's fleet consisted of two Kandosii Dreadnoughts, a handful of Keldabe and Kyramund Battleships, and the usual assortment of cruisers, frigates, and corvettes. Larraq zooms in for a slingshot maneuver, Ayden opens fire as soon as Larraq's fleet rounds the horizon of the planet (from extreme range) and blankets the area in Ewar. Larraq orders his fleet to extend the slingshot maneuver and go back the way they came, massively out-pacing the OP fleet and fleeing the system in spite of Ayden's threats to the contrary (because the LotF fleet had collapsed before Larraq could even get into the fight).

The Mandalorian Crusade: (unsure how many posts) Aedan Miles, Rach Vizla, and a few others bring a fleet of Mandalorian warships to face off against Reshmarand his Republic fleet. Displaying what is viewed IC as a poor performance against the Republic Fleet, the IC actions here are used as the grounds for launching the Type 2.5 Retrofit Program, which is intended to modernize a sizable portion of the older warships still in active duty with the Mandalorian Clans' naval forces.

War Games: (all posts including the "Location: Space between Axilla and Bandomeer") Several members of the Mandalorian Clans participate in what is essentially a very expensive game of laser tag with Warships. Data collected from this simulation is used in determining which Mandalorian ship designs require updating with the retrofit package.

 

[Gir Quee]

[member="Captain Larraq"], I'm interested in overall balance. I do not currently see any notable weaknesses in the design that balance what I perceive to be as a high armament, high defense, large carrying capacity, and high speed based on current standards.

I can accept the carrying capacity for the starfighters because that clearly fits with the standards of when the original design was approved, and I can see some room for leeway with troop carrying capacity as well (though probably not up to 30,000 as it currently stands). I can even get behind the speed of 13 because it is relatively close to the current patrol destroyer speed.

I can't really buy the high defenses combined with the high weapons count, however. If I convert Ordo's version of the Kandosii to current weapons and armament ratings, it is really close to a patrol destroyer, which has an armament rating of "5". I really think that following his example is probably the best way forward with this, however, I am open to other ideas for potential tradeoffs.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Gir Quee"]

[member="Captain Larraq"], I'm interested in overall balance. I do not currently see any notable weaknesses in the design that balance what I perceive to be as a high armament, high defense, large carrying capacity, and high speed based on current standards.

There are no current standards, only starting points.

Just so people are aware, the example ships aren't hard limits but they're supposed to be good starting points. If you make a ship with stats above these, don't be surprised if you get asked to add weaknesses to balance. You'll note that some of them are maxed out in a particular area (hangar size, weaponry, etc.), but none of them are maxed out in all areas.

The template is supposed to support a wide variety of ships, not pigeon hole you into a set of classes. But it's a balance between speed, manoeuvrability, armament rating, defensive rating, size of hangar and special features.

I'd recommend anyone new to starships copies and pastes the example ship closest to what they're after and tweaks from there!

If people think there's a massive gap for an example ship, let me know!

That being said,

To be fair, Planetary Assault Carriers exist as a subtype of Dedicated Carriers because of this ship design. The original design is the absolute base model by which all Planetary Assault Carriers are compared. However, I absolutely agree that the ship needs more weaknesses listed. But, I tend to design my ships in a way that the strengths and weaknesses don't exactly create "flaws" so much as they help create an overall theme for the ship that assists writers in their roleplays. If you have some suggestions for additional weaknesses, I would be glad to hear them.

I had previously asked for examples of what sort of weaknesses you would find balancing to the submission.





And in regard to-

I can't really buy the high defenses combined with the high weapons count, however. If I convert Ordo's version of the Kandosii to current weapons and armament ratings, it is really close to a patrol destroyer, which has an armament rating of "5". I really think that following his example is probably the best way forward with this, however, I am open to other ideas for potential tradeoffs.

I would point you towards the wording of the Starship Template itself.

Dedicated Carrier
Average Length: 1000-2000 Meters.

Armament: ------ Typically requires development: Anything above 10 for a max size vessel.
Defenses: ------ Typically requires development: Anything above 14 for a max size vessel.
Hangar: ------ Typically requires development: Anything above 10 for a max size vessel with low armament.
Speed/Maneuverability: ------ Typically requires development: Below 13 for a 1000m or 15 for a 1500m vessel with a low armament.

As well as to the above mentioned quote of Raziel. The ships on the guide are starting points. They are not standards from which you expect new designs to adhere.
Everything I am seeing in the rules is stating that what I have here is a liiiiiitle bit above what the starship template says I can get away with without requiring development threads.
There is nothing in the template saying that what I have is beyond reason.
Nor is there anything in the "Example Ship and Reference Chart" that would indicate that what I am reaching for is unacceptable. Only that it will require development.


But, as I showed in my previous response, there is an extensive pile of development from which to pull for this design.
I agree that it could use some weaknesses and I would love to hear your ideas in that regard, but I'm just not seeing anything in the stats of the ship that is absolutely beyond reason. At Armament 14 and Defenses 16, Speed 13, and Hangar 10... I'm just not seeing the issue.

Would you be more comfortable if I neutered the anti-starfighter capabilities of the design as justification for the anti-capital ship capabilities of the design?

 

[Gir Quee]

As well as to the above mentioned quote of Raziel. The ships on the guide are starting points. They are not standards from which you expect new designs to adhere. Everything I am seeing in the rules is stating that what I have here is a liiiiiitle bit above what the starship template says I can get away with without requiring development threads. There is nothing in the template saying that what I have is beyond reason. Nor is there anything in the "Example Ship and Reference Chart" that would indicate that what I am reaching for is unacceptable. Only that it will require development.

I'm going to point out that those all say "For a max size vessel", which per the Dedicated Carrier Template is 2000 meters. I think that there is a pretty big size difference between 2000 meters and 1360 meters. None of this means of course that this is insurmountable, but that this will need more development than the usual, basic standard.

I am in the process of reviewing your development posts for this submission right now, and considering how ambitious this is, I will likely be consulting some of the other factory staff for their input on this. I will get back to you when this process is done.

 

[Gir Quee]

[member="Captain Larraq"], after consultation with other members of the factory staff, at this time, I cannot approve this version of the Kandosii with its current mix of high armament, large hangar capacity, and relatively small size regardless of the development behind it.

We have three basic options to go forward then:

1) Moderately High weapons, max squadron count, and maximum length (2000 meters)
2) Moderately high weapons, low squadron count, and current length
3) Low weapons count, max squadron count, and current length

This is obviously a simplified version, but we can get into more specific details later on.

As far as the development for this ship is concerned, I think that it currently has enough for the minimum dev for its size (since this ship is greater than 1000 meters) and perhaps for a minor stat boost in one or two areas.

In many of these threads, the kandosii does show up for a few posts, which I think helps to establish the concept behind a long-lasting design that is continually upgraded. But often the focus of many of these posts even with those threads isn't on the Kandosii. With the exception of your use of it at Coruscant and several posts by Ordo, it most often appears to me to be an incidental ship as part of a larger fleet.

In addition some of these threads appear to be have used as development threads for other powerful projects by both yourself, notably the Roche-class Corvette and Alor-class, and by other members of the UCM for their own submissions. I can understand potentially reusing very select elements of these threads that really shine the spotlight on the Kandosii, but I do not think that I can count them as significant development threads for this project in their own rights.

For the "Mandalorian War Games" and "The Mandalorian Crusades" threads, I have not noticed the Kandosii being present for either of these threads, though I admit that there's the possibility that missed it in my searching. I would imagine that this because those threads were originally going to be used in support of the tech submission that you did for this. If you could point me to specific posts (with their numbers) that show the discussion about how these IC events will affect future Mandalorian shipbuilding technologies, I would appreciate that.

For the extensive list of subsystems, I am going to recommend at least 10 more posts for these features alone. Depending on the exact ratings that are aiming for may require extra development. I would like to request these threads be specifically focused on the Kandosii itself or on the actual process of refitting older Mandalorian designs as part of the IC refit (in other words, actual building, material gathering, etc).

 

[Captain Larraq]

For the "Mandalorian War Games" and "The Mandalorian Crusades" threads, I have not noticed the Kandosii being present for either of these threads, though I admit that there's the possibility that missed it in my searching. I would imagine that this because those threads were originally going to be used in support of the tech submission that you did for this. If you could point me to specific posts (with their numbers) that show the discussion about how these IC events will affect future Mandalorian shipbuilding technologies, I would appreciate that.

I'm sorry, what? There are no rules regarding specific content being included in a development thread. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, are there any rules restricting what posts do and do not apply to a given submission's development. Last I checked, the word from Illie on the matter was that any thread can be used as development and that any writer who participated in the thread can use the full length of development to their own project. Aka, if 10 writers work together to get 30 posts done in a restricted material dev thread, then that 30 post thread could potentially be used for the construction of 10 different submissions.

If you guys are changing your stance on development threads and how they relate to submissions, then that information needs to be posted somewhere.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Gir Quee"]

For reference, what is the total dev thread requirement you are aiming for with this submission, including existing threads and posts?

1) Moderately High weapons, max squadron count, and maximum length (2000 meters)
2) Moderately high weapons, low squadron count, and current length
3) Low weapons count, max squadron count, and current length

Armament Rating 14, Defensive Rating 16, and limited point defense...
That's already as low as I can go while still considering this design being justified as a retrofit.

How would bringing the length up from 1,360 to 1,450 and the hangar capacity down to 8 squadrons effect what you're looking at?
Replace them with... say... a bunch of Bes'uliik War Droids. Since this thing is a "planetary assault carrier", that would greatly reduce the starfighter count that this thing can pump out, keep the total numbers roughly similar to their canon counterpart, and give the ship something "planetary" to make up for the lack of drop pod launch bays in the design.

I think that's as much wiggle room as I'd really be comfortable giving the ship...

 

[Gir Quee]

I'm sorry, what? There are no rules regarding specific content being included in a development thread. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, are there any rules restricting what posts do and do not apply to a given submission's development. Last I checked, the word from Illie on the matter was that any thread can be used as development and that any writer who participated in the thread can use the full length of development to their own project. Aka, if 10 writers work together to get 30 posts done in a restricted material dev thread, then that 30 post thread could potentially be used for the construction of 10 different submissions. If you guys are changing your stance on development threads and how they relate to submissions, then that information needs to be posted somewhe

A major point in this is relevance. A development thread by its nature is directly related to the submission at hand. If all of the writers are clearly working towards making a new submission in their posts, that's great. I can definitely count that as pure development. If the thread is an invasion, skirmish, or dominion, and the posts do not appear to be related to the project, I am not very likely to count them as development.

Armament Rating 14, Defensive Rating 16, and limited point defense... That's already as low as I can go while still considering this design being justified as a retrofit.

The template gives us two areas to look at when designing ships: rating descriptions and template examples. Ratings give us broad ranges of what could be acceptable based on size and development. The template examples give us rough (and no, not ironclad) ideas of how the ratings should interact with each other. It's quite possible to have a heavily armed carrier, but it will probably not have the max squadron count with that as well. This is a balance issue.

I might be able to get behind your comments about the refit if the original submission had armament and defensive ratings, but it does not. Instead, it appears to follow what was then standard for "support" ships, which I think clearly coordinates to the dedicated carrier template of today. I can understand potentially bumping up the armament a little bit from the template, but I do not think that I can justify an increase of armament rating that is over 3 times higher over the base standards, especially a smaller ship with a large carrying capacity.

The maximum armament rating that I could potentially give this, and this is assuming that the squadron count is getting cut back by at least half, is something like "8". Realistically, we're probably looking at "5" with its current mix of attributes. As far as actual details are concerned, I do like your idea of incorporating the war droids as part of your squadron count. I do think gives it the planetary assault carrier feel. That will sti

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Gir Quee"]

You cut off there

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Gir Quee"]

After going back and forth with Draco for a while in regards to the relation between gun-count and armament ratings between ships, we ended up cutting back the armament of the Kandosii down to be roughly in-line with what the Keldabe is capable of, but with additional Siphon Cannons in place of the battery of Vulcan Cannons. And maintaining the severely reduced point defense capabilities to justify the decent-ish armament of the ship.

So, offense wise, while most Dedicated Carriers have a light offensive armament and a heavy defensive armament (I have no idea why so many people have been putting "point defense" as part of the Defensive Rating... that has nothing to do with the durability of a ship.) this ship has traded out almost all of the point defense for an increased offensive punch... which helps it hit somewhere between a Star Destroyer and a Dedicated Carrier, but with inferior point defense capabilities to either.


And I've currently got the Squadron Count down to 8 "actual" Squadrons with the space for the other two canonical squadrons being dedicated to Bes'uliik War Droids... which, while fun for boarding operations and planetary assaults, can't really do much against actual Starfighters.


How's that looking in terms of balance?

 

[Gir Quee]

[member="Captain Larraq"], when I give ballpark rating suggestions, I am generally flexible somewhat if they are plus or minus 1 from what I've stated (this is assuming that all of the suggested ratings aren't all buffed by +1). I'm really looking at an armament rating of "6" with what I'm seeing now. But that's assuming that the other ratings and properties aren't changed from where they are now.

I can maybe see a semi-proportionally higher armament rating with cuts to the speed, defense, or hangar count. Again, the exact extent of a boost depends on how much is being traded.

I can get behind the idea of a ship design that bridges the area between a carrier and a star destroyer, if that is the intent of this project. This does get a bit tricky though because we do have patrol star destroyers (very similar to the old light star destroyer category) which are only slightly smaller on average compared to this ship. At just a glance at this ship's current armament listing, I can see that this would massively outgun them several times over, despite carrying vastly more starfighters and troops. For these balance reasons, I can't really let these stats go as they are right now.

If armament is a key concern of this design, I might consider changing this over to being a balanced star destroyer. Yes, this will cause a loss of starfighters, but I think it will have the more overall brute power that you seem to be looking for.

 

[Allyson Locke]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

Please post in the second chance thread.

 

[Allyson Locke]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

Under Review