Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Subsidiary Limits

Recently, or at least over the last several months, there have been a massive amount of company submissions for subsidiaries of tier 3 companies (and some tier 4s), all of which are tier 2 and basically have been submitted every time they run into an operation they do not have. There are also characters whom submit multiple companies (I'm talking dozens, not two or three small ones) for the sake of covering every operation feasible, as displayed by most of these subsidiaries.

I'd like to propose a discussion on limiting the amount of subsidiaries any one company may have, depending on its tier (and possibly development added) and the operations of the subsidiaries in question. I'd also like to see if we can do something about people just submitting a plethora of companies just to get around tier promotions and the work involved in that.

[member="Spencer Jacobs"] [member="Netherworld"] [member="Draco Vereen"] [member="Raziel"] [member="Cira"] [member="Reshmar"]
 

ADM. Reshmar

Directorate Officer Fleet Admiral SJC 3rd Fleet
As I said in the chat, I agree there needs to be a upper limit dependent on Tier level. Also why does a subsidiary get to start as a Tier 2? IF you have a Tier 3 and 20 Tier 2 companies it just doesn't make sense.
 
I support this idea.

I think we can have a base set of guidelines that can be by tier level and development.

At tier 3 is when a company can have subsidiaries.

So just fleshing it out as an idea:

Max amount of subsidiaries per tier level:

Tier 3: Four max subsidiaries.
Tier 4: Five max subsidiaries.
Tier 5: Six max subsidiaries.
Tier 6: Seven max subsidiaries.


Max amount of Tier 2 and below per character:

This can be a reasonable number. I think two or three is okay. ( the latter based on development )


This is just super rough in my head. Please critique.
 

Alric Kuhn

Handsome K'lor'slug
This is entirely unnecessary, and even detrimental to the "game" that is inherently played with companies and I'm going to explain why.

First, I'm going to state that yes this does effect me. I have made...four subsidiaries for Vanir each with a different task and meaning behind them. All of these subsidiaries serve a direct purpose that is not filled by the main company and doesn't even actually relate to what the main company does, instead it achieved a service/goal that the main company either could not, or would not expand to.

Now, with that clarified I'm going to start into my three point system of why this isn't needed.

1 - Subsidiaries serve an incredibly important function within the game of companies. Logically, most corporations cannot expand into every avenue for production in their local service, so instead of doing that they buy and or found smaller corporations within their own specialty. It helps them diversify their brand while still maintaining control over what is produced. Unsurprisingly, most of the time when this occurs it is larger businesses owning smaller businesses of the same type. An example would be food corporations owning smaller lesser known brands. This chart here is a great example of that. Each of those companies own at least 10+ subsidiaries that all do things for them, with these new rules that would be impossible, cutting off an avenue of RP and development or members and taking a way a very large part about how most businesses logically expand and grow larger.

2 - A Subsidiaries secondary function is to allow the expansion of a corporation into an area it holds no expertise in. What do I mean by this? It's actually pretty simple and again I can point out a real life example. The company known as Tencent owns well over 20+ subsidiary companies, the ones listed on the wikipedia however, all serve a specific function. To put it simply, Tencent is a chinese company, with a chinese culture and a chinese way of doing things. For nearly a decade Tencent attempted to break out into foreign markets, however each time they tried they were unable to. Why? Because they simply didn't have the cultural understanding. So what did they do? They bought companies in foreign markets. These companies(subsidiaries) with Tencent funding were then able to expand and grow in their own market regions and become bigger businesses alltogether while still being owned by Tencent. A great example of this on the board is what I did with Vanir Technologies. The main company has no interest or know how in shipping, so they simply bought out a shipping corporation(subbed) to do all of their shipping for them and have expanded them with IC money.

3 - This is an entirely unnecessary rule when you can just deny the submission. Subsidiaries need three things in order to function. A solid market share, a good directive, and capital. Whenever a subsidiary comes up for a Tier 3 company, you can see if the subsidiary, and the company that wishes to own/found it, would have those three things. If not? Deny it. You can absolutely at any time do that. A Tier 3 company logically shouldn't be able to have 10+ subsidiaries anyway because they wouldn't have the capital, you don't need another rule stating that.

3.1 - This would entirely ruin the ability to own, operate, and truly create a Holding Company thereby cutting off an entire avenue of roleplay. An avenue in which Alric got his start.

3.2 - This could entirely abuse and call into question the use of stocks. If I already own 4 subsidiaries but then go and make more companies but my company only happens to have say...a 49% stake in this new company with 2% being owned by a third party close to me(say an alt) and the other 49% being publicly owned...isn't that skirting the rules and causing more problems because it calls into question the use of stocks in Companies. Inevitably rules would have to be created around the use of stock and that would get more annoying.

3.3 - It just feels entirely unnecessary and lazy to create another rule that seems to be a small problem.
 
I'll once again emphasize that my proposal is a "guideline".

A guideline much like the thread we have posted as a starting point for dev threads. This is /not/ a rule.

Fluctuation is possible based on dev threads and common sense if that company can afford it stand alone or with the funding of a higher tiered company.
 
Spencer Jacobs said:
I'm curious as to why this was a thing?
I have been told in the past that I am not to deny submissions in the company section for making multiple (see: 8 tier 1 or 2's, non-subsidiaries, owned by 1 single character, and multiple other examples which I will discuss without using names unless this is taken to PM) companies or subsidiaries for the reasons outlined above.

There is now a tier 3 with over 12 subsidiaries with 3 more sitting for review in the company section, and there are other characters who seem to be submitting new companies every week to get every operation covered without ever going through the tier upgrading process.

It seems a little broken to have someone possess 30 companies to produce every operation in order to avoid the whole "game" that is being used as the defense in the first place.
 
Alric Kuhn said:
3.1 - This would entirely ruin the ability to own, operate, and truly create a Holding Company
This was brought up to be a discussion, not a request for a rule to be implemented. The idea was for issues with this to be brought up as well - such as holding companies, service companies, etc - and resolve potential problems caused by special circumstances, and it was meant to be read as a guideline - like location listings. A tier 2 is generally only to have 2 or maybe 3 closely related operations, but with development more operations can be added.

The premise behind this was to give me something to direct a submitter to so they can see what I or other judges look for when we request development beyond operations & locations.



Alric Kuhn said:
3.2 - This could entirely abuse and call into question the use of stocks. If I already own 4 subsidiaries but then go and make more companies but my company only happens to have say...a 49% stake in this new company with 2% being owned by a third party close to me(say an alt) and the other 49% being publicly owned...isn't that skirting the rules and causing more problems because it calls into question the use of stocks in Companies. Inevitably rules would have to be created around the use of stock and that would get more annoying.
This is specifically geared towards submissions made by writers multiple times by a single character, stocks are not monitored by the factory, nor are they a concern. I don't see purchasing stock (part of the role-playing process, which involves the work that simply flooding the company forums with submissions lacks) as being an issue with this.



Alric Kuhn said:
2 - A Subsidiaries secondary function is to allow the expansion of a corporation into an area it holds no expertise in. What do I mean by this? It's actually pretty simple and again I can point out a real life example. The company known as Tencent owns well over 20+ subsidiary companies, the ones listed on the wikipedia however, all serve a specific function. To put it simply, Tencent is a chinese company, with a chinese culture and a chinese way of doing things. For nearly a decade Tencent attempted to break out into foreign markets, however each time they tried they were unable to. Why? Because they simply didn't have the cultural understanding. So what did they do? They bought companies in foreign markets. These companies(subsidiaries) with Tencent funding were then able to expand and grow in their own market regions and become bigger businesses alltogether while still being owned by Tencent. A great example of this on the board is what I did with Vanir Technologies. The main company has no interest or know how in shipping, so they simply bought out a shipping corporation(subbed) to do all of their shipping for them and have expanded them with IC money.
Again, this is to be a guideline for what we look for when we ask for more development. I'm not asking that we look at a character with 2 companies and say they can't have anymore, I'm asking that we can have a publicized list of what we request development for - specifically for having a ridiculous amount of tier 2s for a tier 3 or submitting multiple companies at tier 2 just to cover operations.



Alric Kuhn said:
1 - Subsidiaries serve an incredibly important function within the game of companies. Logically, most corporations cannot expand into every avenue for production in their local service, so instead of doing that they buy and or found smaller corporations within their own specialty. It helps them diversify their brand while still maintaining control over what is produced. Unsurprisingly, most of the time when this occurs it is larger businesses owning smaller businesses of the same type. An example would be food corporations owning smaller lesser known brands. This chart here is a great example of that. Each of those companies own at least 10+ subsidiaries that all do things for them, with these new rules that would be impossible, cutting off an avenue of RP and development or members and taking a way a very large part about how most businesses logically expand and grow larger.
Each of those companies could easily be justified as a tier 6 or above company, and while I haven't had the chance to look over [member="Cira"]'s list of proposals, this has more to do with smaller companies endlessly expanding at an unbelievable rate with absolutely zero development (see current submissions in the factory for a good example, at the time of this post). What will immediately follow any attempt to deny or request development threads will be "Why?" And the issue behind that is that nobody else has placed strict limitations on tier 1's and 2's or subsidiaries besides maybe one previous judge. My answer, mostly to do with what I have taken an issue with and explained above, will be met with a "I didn't have to do this before, and nowhere does it say I need to" - which was why we even have a list of what we ask for development threads in the factory discussion in the first place, for these same questions. And I'm sure certain people will get upset, report, complain, and so on, and this will happen in a far less reasonable way - or the issue will continue, suspended by that.
 
Cira said:
Tier 3: Four max subsidiaries. Tier 4: Five max subsidiaries. Tier 5: Six max subsidiaries. Tier 6: Seven max subsidiaries.
Here's what I think is a little more reasonable, given the size increases in orders of magnitude, feel free to correct/critique as needed:
  • Tier 3: 4 Subsidiaries with little to no development
  • Tier 4: 6 Subsidiaries with little to no development
  • Tier 5: 10 Subsidiaries with little to no development
  • Tier 6: 12 Subsidiaries with little to no development
Holding companies or Parent companies can be case-by-case, or by other suggestions made.
[member="Cira"] [member="Spencer Jacobs"]
 
What I also wanted to add was for start up, stand alone companies:


Stand Alone Tier 2 and Below Companies

  • Tier 2: Up to 2 with little to no development.
  • Tier 1: Up to 3 with little to no development.
In essence, a character can have a combination of Tier 1 & 2's of about two or three in total with little to no development. Anything more beyond that will require a development thread.
 
Recommendation for addition to the company template:

The recommendation is in green below. Please critque, or add help make it sound pretty.

This is just to ensure we can go to the parent company and review what subsidiaries they have.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Subsidiaries[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]: (At Tier 3, if you so choose, your corporation can start owning other companies. If your corporation owns a company or multiple companies, this is where to list them. Subsidiaries require their own company submissions. Development threads would need to be done to show the work of the corporation. This is not something that you should expect to change easily, and we will be looking closely. Every time you add a new subsidiary, you must place a company mod to update it on the parent [/SIZE]corporation[SIZE=10.5pt] sub.)[/SIZE]
Parent Corporation: ( If this corporation is a subsidiary of another company, please name and link that parent corporation here.)
 
[member="Spencer Jacobs"]

Guidelines for Creating New Companies and Subsidiaries

The following is a standard guideline on what is normally allowed with little to no development for the creation of new companies. Anything beyond this may prompt a FJ to request additional development threads for their final approval.

  • Holding companies or Parent companies can be case-by-case. Requirements may include the funding of another Tier 4+ company, Minor, or Major faction.
  • Every additional new Location & Operation requested through the Company Modification Thread will require their own development thread.
  • As per the Standardization of Dev Threads a development thread is required to start a subsidiary of a Tier V+ company at Tier III.

Stand Alone Tier 2 and Below Companies

A character may start with a combination of the following Tier companies with little to no development. Anything more beyond that may require a development thread.
  • Tier 2: Up to 2 companies
  • Tier 1: Up to 3 companies

Number of Subsidiaries under a Parent Company

The amount below is the reasonable amount of subsidiaries for their respective tier with little to no development.
  • Tier 3: 4 Subsidiaries
  • Tier 4: 6 Subsidiaries
  • Tier 5: 10 Subsidiaries
  • Tier 6: 12 Subsidiaries

Company Locations and Operations
Start up companies normally have the following amount of Locations and Operations with little to no development. A FJ may request for a development thread beyond this standard based on reasonable complimentary locations and operations.
  • Tier 1: Up to 2 locations & Operations
  • Tier 2: Up to 3 locations & Operations


Please critique, make sound pretty and all that jazz.
 
[member="Cira"] [member="Spencer Jacobs"]

As we already ask for development on companies that go beyond 2-3 locations and 2-3 operations (depending on the operation) for tier 2's, and 1-2 locations and operations for tier 1's, can we incorporate that in some way in this?
 

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