Discussion Some philosophy

[Grand Shepherd Burtch]

So, I don’t typically do a lot of (or any) rants like this out of thin air, but I thought I’d try something new.

For quite some time now, I’ve been annoyed with the contrast between the Jedi Code and the Sith code. This contrast is strictly exhibited by one dynamic; how much the Jedi code sucks compared to how awesome the Sith code is.

Seriously, the disparity between the sith code and the Jedi code is almost not even worth comparing. The Jedi code seems to be filled with a bunch of disjointed rules and dogma which the individual is supposed adhere to blindly, while performing mental backflips to understand the wisdom behind them. The Sith code literal dismantles the whole thing with “PEACE IS A LIE” and then systematically reinforces itself as the tenets progress.

It’s not even a contest. It’s a slaughter.

Perhaps this is intentional by the lucasfilm company? To exhibit a fundamental example of how the path to the dark side is easier?

Maybe.

But I seriously think that it was thoughtlessness on the part of lucasfilm expanded universe story teams, and that’s why we never hear it quoted prominently in any of the mainstream shows and movies.

So, I guess I’d like to take a crack at rewriting it with my own take. I’ve been working on this for years, but this is my first time posting this iteration openly for so many people to read. So, I look forward to hearing what think about it.

Spoiler: Alternative Code

Peace is not a lie, when you surrender
Surrender is not defeat, when there is faith
Faith is not blind, when there is love
Love is not a trap, when there is sacrifice
Sacrifice is not impossible, when there is courage
Courage is not found, it is achieved through discipline
Discipline is a not burden, when there are dreams
The Force will show us those dreams​

 

[Matsu Ike]

the thing about the jedi code compared to the sith code is... the jedi code has a dozen variants while the sith code largely remained the same and each version of the jedi code usually changed to be more dogmatic as opposed to how it started with the Je'daii... it makes it fun as you can have a dozen jedi and all of them can debate their views as times but in contrast it is ehh

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

I really like your version, though it could do with a stronger finish. I'm not sure if dreams should be the focus, but more inner peace and protecting others?

Just a thought cause what is the life of discipline, sacrifice, and the courage of a Jedi for if not protecting others?

 

[Grand Shepherd Burtch]

the thing about the jedi code compared to the sith code is... the jedi code has a dozen variants while the sith code largely remained the same and each version of the jedi code usually changed to be more dogmatic as opposed to how it started with the Je'daii... it makes it fun as you can have a dozen jedi and all of them can debate their views as times but in contrast it is ehh

I like that you point out that there are multiple codes for the Jedi. I actually had to look up the Je’daii code lol. In my opinion, it does manage to skirt the Sith dismantlement on the peace part by not simply mentioning it. However, it still suffers from the same symptoms as the mainstream Jedi version. It’s more of a disjointed list of dogmas when compared to the Sith code without any flow or thesis.

Which, again, maybe that is the point? The Sith code seems to stack on itself increasing its own strength of message as the tenets are spoken. The Jedi and Je’daii do not pursue power in the same way, which, maybe the humility of the lightside codes are meant to reflect that? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.

I really like your version, though it could do with a stronger finish. I'm not sure if dreams should be the focus, but more inner peace and protecting others?

Just a thought cause what is the life of discipline, sacrifice, and the courage of a Jedi for if not protecting others?

Excellent observations!

Yes, I’d definitely like to workshop that ending a little better. For the sake of impact, I definitely feel like that would help, but it’s hard in this case. My current code speaks in a reverse order to the Sith Code. The Sith code begins with an attack on the Jedi code, and then ends with the ultimate goal of the Sith with a brilliant buildup. Inversely, my version starts with the attack and the goal at the same time, and then proceeds to outline the path to achieving that goal. This does make the finish less impactful, which I’d like to fix. Perhaps I should reverse the order? Do I lose the attention grabber at the beginning by doing so? I’d love to hear your thoughts.

As for your thoughts on protecting others, I think that this falls under the Love section of the code. Protecting others is an act of love, which is then achieved though sacrifice, courage, and discipline as you mention. Those three qualities are listed after the love part, indicating that they are the path to love, as you indicated. But then there are attributes listed above love, which would imply that Love is not the end goal. This does trigger the discussion as to whether love is the ultimate destination of the lightside, or is it simply a stepping stone to something else? It’s kind of a chicken-egg paradox, which, again, I’d love to hear your thoughts on.

 

[Auteme]

jedi code slander detected

Hi there. Average Jedi fan here. Not going to keep you waiting; respectfully, I think your take is colder than my bed on Valentine's.

I wrote an analysis of the Jedi Code from Auteme's perspective a while back that I think holds up pretty well overall. However, my powers have doubled since I last wrote about this topic, so if I say anything here that contradicts what I wrote there, this takes precedent. Double however, I'm going to take a different route of analysis/argument here, so there probably won't be much overlap. I'll be doing double duty of defending the Jedi Code and showing why the Sith Code kinda dookie doo doo. After that, I'll talk a bit about why I think your rewritten code falls sort of into the same traps as the Sith Code.

Firstly, I think it's wrong to state that the Jedi Code is dogmatic, or even that it's necessarily specific and hard rules. At a very basic level -- do you think all Jedi don't believe that emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, or death aren't real? The Code is not an argument; the statements it makes are not really statements, in the sense that it's not necessary for them to be strictly true or false. I think it's more productive to look at it as art that must be interpreted.

I also think -- and this is more subjective, of course -- that interpretation is necessary for understanding. You describe "mental backflips"; I think that if you approach the text in good faith, the meaning is pretty clear. Literal readings of the Sith or Jedi Code are bound to fail to understand them.

As I laid out in my older analysis, it seems like the Jedi Code is laying out virtues to strive towards for the Jedi. It's essentially an acknowledgement that, while contexts change, always striving towards those virtues will not lead you wrong. Though it feels reductive to pretty much say, "always try to be good" -- do you need much else?

I think the Jedi Code is actually strengthened when put in contrast with the Sith Code. Still, to give the Sith a bit of credit, the rhetorical structure and punch is pretty cool. It emphasizes action and self; it could be seen as a genuinely revolutionary ideology, particularly in its recognition of the will to power and realization of freedom.

You say that the negation that starts the Sith Code is groundbreaking and powerful; I think so too, but I also think it speaks to the inherent evil of the Code. The difference between good and evil is that good can create, but evil can only pervert and corrupt. This draws from a sort of a biblical framing, i.e. the Devil can only pervert what is pure and noble about creation, but I think it holds up generally; evil is never creative, only destructive, a perversion of the good things that have already been created. Framing the Sith Code as a response to the Jedi Code may be effective rhetorically but ultimately points out how the ideals of the Sith are a dark perversion of the ideals of the Jedi.

Further, I think it's important to look at how the Sith Code is interpreted. I think you could do a favorable reading of it, where it's a sort of existential realization of one's own ultimate freedom. But instead, the Sith get stuck on the second to fourth lines, seeking power above all else is not a route to a good life. The acknowledgement of the will to power in the Sith Code is important, but when power is sought for destructive and oppressive domination rather than creative liberation, no good can come from it.

A slightly less favorable reading could be that the Sith Code is a build towards taking freedom, placing power as the means -- but this fails to recognize that we are already radically free to choose our values. By placing power as a virtue -- the only virtue, other than freedom -- it's practically begging for its followers to lead miserable lives of domination. In contrast, the Jedi Code exalts great virtues that one should use their freedom to strive towards, such that they may live a good life and help others live good lives.

I think this is where your Code falters a little. I get what you're going for -- it's more dynamic than the old Jedi Code, building in the same way that the Sith Code does. But to me it seems like you've failed to recognize what makes the Jedi Code so great: the permanent exaltation of great virtues in the face of the impermanence of life. It reflects the ever-present nature of the Force that flows through all things, that unifies the galaxy into one whole, whereas the Sith Code requires a sort of selfish individualism. The Sith Code, while lauding freedom, becomes restrictive as it lays out only single way to achieve it, whereas the Jedi Code is open-ended, allowing the Jedi to reach those virtues on their own terms.

Finally, just a sort of personal preference -- I don't think the virtues in your version are really what a Jedi should be shooting for. I get where you're coming from, and this isn't really a dig, but it seems like the things you're focusing on are very divorced from the things Jedi really care about and do. The connections between the concepts seem a bit strained to me, and I think by connecting them it weakens things -- you say that the parts of the Jedi Code seem disjointed, but when taken as a whole, it's pretty comprehensive, and I don't think connecting them in this structure enhances it too much.

ok that's it i disappear

 

[Auteme]

i lied, one more thought

If the Force connects all things, do connections between the concepts in the Code need to be made explicit? Is it not more enlightening to find those connections on your own, without having them told to you outright? Does this not encourage more creativity and critical thought for a Jedi?

 

[Tiland Kortun]

While Auteme pretty much covered everything, I will add that the Sith code is far more dogmatic- it relies on statements of absolute truth revolving around the speaker. In contrast, we have the Jedi code and the alternate version

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

At the fundamental level, these are paradoxes recognizing true and contradictory statements. Emotions exist, and yet there is peace. Passion exists, and yet there is knowledge. It's the same fundamental message as the normal code, but in a little bit more clearly explained version.