Salvaging Rule.

[Darth Ferus]

http://starwarsrp.net/topic/70221-kouhun-pattern-saber-tail/#entry1043703

The rules state you cant salvage tech that you didn't submit. However, with a thread you can give the item to someone else.

http://starwarsrp.net/topic/55948-scorpion-cybernetic-tail/#entry838602

Wonder why I'm linking these two? [member="Iziz"] got the prhik for [member="Nyos Val"] 's submission, and with a thread Iziz gave the rare material to Nyos. In exchange, Nyos made a tech item built specifically for Iziz.

But now that Iziz wants to upgrade what was given to him, he cannot.

I suggest an amendment that allows players with a thread of proof of ownership (be it thievery or actual purchase) the ability to salvage items that they themselves did not submit. Just like the restricted item transpher rule.

Downsides include! What actually counts as a transpher? What if the original writer chooses they dont want the item salvaged after all? Questions I dont have an answer to, but let the discussions commence!

 

[Ellie Mors]

Sorry, the first thing that popped into my mind was the typo you made. It is transfer, not transpher.

In either case, have the person who submitted the item originally submit the salvaged submission.

 

[Darth Ferus]

[member="Bianca OOC"]

Sometimes the original posters are gone, and you loose out on the item you helped create.

And dont hate on my mistypes. I work too much to care in OOC stuff now.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Sometimes the original posters are gone, and you loose out on the item you helped create.

There is no means of keeping track of who has what without the original submitter posting a notification each time one of their submissions might be salvaged. By allowing people to trade submissions like this you not only open up the issue of keeping track of these submissions and who owns what (which would be impossible for the handful of factory judges to do), you end up having people doling out submissions which make use of these restricted items and giving them out to various people so they may salvage the submissions to make use of the restricted material without use of a development thread.

If the proposal is to have people do a thread to signify a switch in ownership, there is no reason why that person cannot just obtain the restricted material again and submit a new version themselves. There is no difference in work being done, as both would be a requirement of 10 posts minimum.

 

[Jsc]

Dev thread = Posts
Transfer thread = Posts

...I like where this is going.

 

[Akio Diachi]

Yeah I am thinking that sounds pretty good; if you have to do the work either way, ten post thread either way, its not a short cut but a brilliant idea!

 

[Julius Sedaire]

[member="Darth Ferus"] - Sometimes things happen. They require a little extra work. It is unfortunate, but is is life. Literally there is no way to make this fair in work on the FJ's and Staff part excepting requiring a thread of transfer, which would be a 10 post minimum as is pretty much *EVERYTHING* for Factory... This is the exact same as what is currently required by re-doing the restricted materials challenge, excepting it becomes pure semantics and redundancy to do it your way since the way currently in place is no easier or harder on the submitter than what the only reasonable form of what you are suggesting would be.

tl;dr: There is absolutely no reduction in work with your 'solution', and with the current ruling and sub you are referencing nothing unfair or extraneous is being required of the writer, so why bother?

 

[Cira]

I suggest an amendment that allows players with a thread of proof of ownership (be it thievery or actual purchase) the ability to salvage items that they themselves did not submit. Just like the restricted item transpher rule.

Salvaging the item ends up 'destroying' the previous item. If you are not the submitter you do not have the luxury of using those materials for it, because the "salvaged sub" will be considered moot and then unusable. That is why only the submitter may salvage the sub in question.

I advise getting the original submitter to simply resub the tech sub.

 

[Nyos Val]

[member="Bianca OOC"] i as the creator of this tech eould feel like it was stolen if it is allowed to ve altered after i put in all the time and effort to create the submission.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Nyos Val"]
Which is why it is not permitted.

 

[Nyos Val]

[member="Bianca OOC"] thank you.

 

[Nyxie]

All the person did for me was do the write-up, because I was new.

In this particular case, from what I read, the work was done by them and the concept was done by them but it was all put together by someone else on a virtually OOC basis. Now the only options that remain to them are to do all that work over again, or to have the person create it for them all over again -- but what about if/when such a person is on leave or has retired from the site? This exception on the aforementioned basis should have been a matter of common sense, but the end of the day that doesn't matter because a shoddy factory is better than no factory and everyone seems to be content with that ideal.

If it were any other circumstance, where it wasn't literally done for someone because they didn't quite grasp the process themselves -- ergo stealing, trading, etc -- then I would probably say it shouldn't be amended to the rule, because all of the above can be done to just reprocess a material into something else IC and so the entire thing would be redundant. That's my take on it.

But again, in this particular example it was just really strict, literal interpretation of the rules without any common sense or foresight. Basically, if someone gets the material and does the development and then tells me to submit it because they aren't keen on the technical stuff, they can't do squat to their shiny new toy exclusively because it has my name or corp on the post. That's dumb. Sorry for being blunt and forthwith, but that doesn't contribute anything to anyone on this site but frustration and to leech more of their free time.

[member="Nyos Val"] - I must sincerely and genuinely ask, why offer to make something for someone else if you're going to be picky about what they do with it?

I can safely ask that question as someone who has made things for others, and I can safely say as such I couldn't give two bantha droppings what they do with it once it's theirs, because it's theirs. If I'm going to be stingy about it, I'd rather just tell them I can't do it for them so that it's never an issue and never my problem.

[member="Iziz"] - I'll help you make your thing, however and whatever you want it to be.

Anyways, that opinion and observation out of the way, I'm officially ticked off enough to say I'll offer to gather restricted materials or do subs for people if this is how it's going to be -- with or without their help required. Feel free to take me up on that offer any time, guys. The entire board should be nothing but fun and enjoyable.

Ya'll ruin the spirit of RP sometimes, I swear....

 

[Iziz]

[member="Bianca OOC"] | [member="Nyos Val"]

Yet I also put in the work for the 3 dev threads that went into that, putting in 2 of the major components and being in the attachment thread. So I put in just as much effort as you did, the item being called 'yours' isn't factually correct just because you put in the submission when we did equal work to put it there. And i use the term equal lightly. Considering one of those threads was killing a PC. You were in the attachment thread 'with me' and did the write-up. I came to you because i needed help with the tail, and at the time i was really uncertain of the whole factory thing.

The phrik was mine, the saber was mine, I'm not trying to alter the MCD cos thats a separate item entirely.

It shouldn't feel stolen because i have to reference the original at the bottom, so your input is still there being credited.

But ultimately, Nyos, would you not feel the same if I just trashed the tail as it's out-dated? Cos that's the alternative. The item is unique, so others can't be made or sold. And it's belonging to my character, so, I'm the only person it effects and who is using it, I'm going to either upgrade or replace it, would you rather me throw away your sub? Making ll your work pointless, Or build off it?

I would amend the rule to say that you cannot alter equipment that you have been given freely, but if you EARNED it, upgrading should be fine.

If you put in 100 posts to get a capitol ship, and decide to get one that's on the market, then do another 40 posts to change some of the weapon output, 20 more to upgrade the engine and 30 more to give it wings (I'm just saying things at this point). There should be nothing stopping you, because you put in just as much leg-work to earn that ship.

It also makes no sense ICly.

EDIT:

I don't feel like simply needing to maybe ask someone "Was it given to you, or did you work for it?" or "Provide links to you earning the item" is somehow a massive weight on the FJ's. Considering we supply the original app, which should have those linked as dev threads to prove our case.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Your question, in your submission, has been answered.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I would amend the rule to say that you cannot alter equipment that you have been given freely, but if you EARNED it, upgrading should be fine.

You can alter any equipment/submission you would like to alter, but you cannot salvage (which means we change the Approved prefix for the original submission and change it to Salvaged - meaning it is destroyed and nobody can use it again, period) any submission unless it was submitted by you.

If you put in 100 posts to get a capitol ship, and decide to get one that's on the market, then do another 40 posts to change some of the weapon output, 20 more to upgrade the engine and 30 more to give it wings (I'm just saying things at this point). There should be nothing stopping you, because you put in just as much leg-work to earn that ship.

This is not salvaging, you are not taking the materials of X and using it for submission Y to create a new product, you are applying changes to the ship as-is. The manufacturer and 99% of the information stays the same, but you are not taking the entire production line and melting them all down to make a smaller production line.

The fundamental difference is that you cannot destroy item X to make item Y unless it is your submission, while you can apply changes to item X - which is not salvaging.

 

[Allyson Locke]

I've already discussed the situation with Bianca OOC about Iziz submission. Things are being handled and honestly we follow the rules but I understand certain cases. The rule isn't going to change, it protects the submitter from having things stolen and being destroyed and unusable. If you want to eventually salvage something, submit it yourself. As for the current situation, it's being handled and Iziz won't be held back from creating what is desired.

 

[Nyos Val]

[member="Cheshire"] I offered to make his tech because I was being nice. I can safely say I don't give to Bantha turds what you would do because you're not me and obviously hold your creations to no standard. I did the best work I could come up with and was very proud that Iziz was excited and satisfied with my work. I can also safely say that you've done nothing but contribute frustration that has leeched the free time of everyone who took part in this discussion thread instead of playing those fun RP's you so vaguely fight for.

You have ruined my spirit for RP at this time.

[member="Iziz"] as the creator of the tech, as IRL, someone did do work on it, but with my company stamp on it, I hold its title. No one from Apple can go changing the iPhone without consent from management so why is it any different here? Taking my tech, my product and destroying it to then rebuild it and call it your own is stealing. Like [member="Bianca OOC"] said, alter the tech, that's fine and within site rules. But straight up destroying the work that even you put in and then rebuilding it? Why not sub something entirely new on your own. Remove my tech from your character and then it would be fine.

Also, the MCD would lose effectiveness as it is not calibrated to work on anything outside my own tech. It would need to be removed by me or left in and be rendered useless.

If you had just come to me first and said what you'd like to do, we could have avoided all this to start.

[member="Bianca OOC"] [member="Spencer Jacobs"] I appreciate you each taking the time to work with us in this. I'm sorry your time was taken up by something that could have been handled in a few PMs without a peanut gallery chiming on something that's not their business.

As of this post, I'm backing out completely and letting you take complete control with no more input on my part.

Thank you.

 

[Allyson Locke]

This is why it's good to talk to people. When I got back from vacation I was confused why this was a thing. Let's move forward gang and make fun toys

 

[Darth Ferus]

Star Wars is -filled- with people not only taking tech illegally, but modifying it. Illegally.

So perhaps another thread should be made not for an amendment, but a new rule regarding this fact.

I'll get a write up going.

[member="Spencer Jacobs"]

 

[Allyson Locke]

Maybe. But as of right now the rule isn't changing. I can only see much drama from "stealing" and having people salvage items making it no longer avaliable to the original writer. Making their hard work pointless. [member="Darth Ferus"]

Also at this moment I'm not sure how that would work out to benefit both parties and not utterly ruin things that have been created with the factory...also avoid drama l.