Liberation of Ship Ownership

[Tathra Khaeus]

​Hello friends and monkeys.

​So I was overlooking the various ship sizes and looking to build some equipment.

​And, I was looking at the ship size restrictions and I opened up the Battlecruiser and Star Destroyer templates and to my surprise found that they are restricted to Major Factions. And, while I understand that limiting how many people can have fleets ect is an important part of the factory ruleset.

​I don't understand why, a Company can create and run a 80km station but not a Battlecruiser literally at most a sixteenth of its size. It's not really, sensible.

​I suppose, the frustration of it all comes from the fact that I do not wish to join a Faction. I'm quiet happy to stay neutral, however while I do believe that should limit my abilities to conquer and control I don't see why I can't have at the very least a modest fleet with a BattleCruiser to head it. Just one.

​Why I propose this is that, as someone who's character runs a Private Military it deters me from entering larger activities as I can simply be stomped out of existence by a MF's fleet. I propose that, a top tier company that has no ties to a faction should be able to own and use at the very least a few Destroyers and at the very least one Battlecruiser.

And yes, I believe while it might be more work it should be a case by case sort of thing. As in, the company in question that wishes to own and make use of said Battlecruiser should have good IC reasoning for such a thing. Thanks for reading.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

I propose that, a top tier company that has no ties to a faction should be able to own and use at the very least a few Destroyers and at the very least one Battlecruiser.

And yes, I believe while it might be more work it should be a case by case sort of thing. As in, the company in question that wishes to own and make use of said Battlecruiser should have good IC reasoning for such a thing. Thanks for reading.

Tier levels have been abolished and companies are no longer regulated by staff. Every company, no matter whether it's an old, established one or one that was made a couple minutes ago, is on the same level as far as Factory rules are concerned.


One of my characters has what used to be categorised as a workshop, two others have companies that were tier 6 and tier 5 companies respectively under the old rule set. All three can now field a 2km warship, semi-unique 10km civilian stations and an 80km civilian station. Thus saying a company needs 'good ic reason' makes no sense. Leaving aside the question of how one would judge that, it's vague and only adds to a work load for staff that the recent Factory reforms was supposed to reduce.


If companies are supposed to be allowed to field a battlecruiser, it has to be a universal thing that applies to all companies. Speaking as someone who writes a private military and has been active in several invasions, the fact that I was unable to field a BC has never deterred me. But then I'm not a fleeter.


Despite the point above, I'd actually agree with allowing companies to field one BC or liberalise the rules when it comes to how many Star Destroyers a Company may actively field. It's not going to allow a Company to go toe-to-toe with a big Major Faction fleet - nor should it - but it will give them some more leeway. SSDs should remain restricted to MFs.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Tier levels have been abolished and companies are no longer regulated by staff. Every company, no matter whether it's an old, established one or one that was made a couple minutes ago, is on the same level as far as Factory rules are concerned.


One of my characters has what used to be categorised as a workshop, two others have companies that were tier 6 and tier 5 companies respectively under the old rule set. All three can now build a 2km warship and an 80km civilian station. Thus saying a company needs 'good ic reason' makes no sense. Leaving aside the question of how one would judge that, it's vague and only adds to a work load for staff that the recent Factory reforms was supposed to reduce.

I only mentioned Tier levels as in respect to the fact that ICly or OOCly someone can define themselves by whatever tier they choose. I was just stating what I classify my own as. Also I don't see how what you're saying means 'good ic reason' is invalidated.

It was left vague as to allow the discussion to formulate the specifics. However, indeed what I mean is that. This sort of option to field Battle Cruisers should be for neutral parties or rather, military based companies. Those that would within universe have the means and reasoning to devote the resources. However, this isn't central to the realisation of this idea.

It's just my view.

If companies are supposed to be allowed to field a battlecruiser, it has to be a universal thing that applies to all companies. Speaking as someone who writes a private military and has been active in several invasions, the fact that I was unable to field a BC has never deterred me. But then I'm not a fleeter.

I guess I should clarify as that, it deters me from being involved in fleeting. I guess. Also, we may share different experiences. Regardless of our individual experiences being 'stomped out of existence by a MF's fleet' as I stated before is still relevant on ground or in the air.

Beyond that, I'm glad you agree.

EDIT: I don't still, don't think all companies should be able to field a Battlecruiser. Because, for some it simply wouldn't make sense. Like, for example there is various Banks or small time services that have company listings. And I don't think they should be able to own a Battlecruiser.

 

[Onrai]

Didn't the Kuat system by itself have multiple 8km Mandator dreadnoughts in its defense fleet during the Clone Wars?

 

[Gir Quee]

Why I propose this is that, as someone who's character runs a Private Military it deters me from entering larger activities as I can simply be stomped out of existence by a MF's fleet. I propose that, a top tier company that has no ties to a faction should be able to own and use at the very least a few Destroyers and at the very least one Battlecruiser.

Despite the point above, I'd actually agree with allowing companies to field one BC or liberalise the rules when it comes to how many Star Destroyers a Company may actively field. It's not going to allow a Company to go toe-to-toe with a big Major Faction fleet - nor should it - but it will give them some more leeway. SSDs should remain restricted to MFs.

I do not feel like this would fully be a factory decision to make, because there's this in the board's faction rules:

5. Only a Major Faction has the resources necessary to role-play having a large fleet, army, etc.

Now you can argue that "large" is a relative term, but that leads to the question of how much is enough?

Let's briefly look at canon. We see extremely few large, military warships in private hands. There's the Errant Venture and arguably the Trade Federation battleships, but those converted freighters are pretty subpar warships on their own. Vanessa mentions the Mandators as well, but it looks murky to me as if to the company owns them, or the Kuati/Republic government owned them. Economics seems to play a part of it.

Fully manning even a single Imperial Star Destroyer is over 40,000 people. That's really a lot of people, for a single ship in this line-up, let alone a battlecruiser. On top of that, there's cost. For this particular example, the cost of a single Imperial star destroyer is "the equivalent of several star systems annual economic output".

But keep in mind, this is for a single, mid-sized star destroyer, not a battlecruiser or multiple star destroyers which are going to be orders of magnitude higher.

I think that going above the single star destroyer goes well into 'having a large fleet or army".

 

[Laira Darkhold]

A Minor Faction can have 1 Star Destroyer, a Company can mass produce them, but can only keep 1, kinda odd, and a PC can have any ship "Within Reason".

Removing the restrictions have been discussed Here, Here, Civilian Ships Here, and many times before. Normally there isn't a great reason why Companies and Minor Factions are restricted to 1, its not a heavily enforced rule, numerous threads including one of the largest threads in site history have completely ignored them with no issues. Its just a thing that exists.

Reasoning it to crew sizes is bad, because "Mid-sized" Destroyers actually have an incredibly varied crew size. Pellaeons are in the 8,000 person range, roughly 1/5th. Nebula-class which is all the punch of a Imperial II-class has ~7,000. All those while the Dreadnaught-class Heavy Cruiser has ~9,000 crewmen and the Malevolence which was almost 3 times the size of an Imperial II-class had just 900 droid crewmen. Its just not a good idea to equate why Chaos can't to canon crew sizes or cost because they make no sense and lack consistency.

In my opinion, why anything less than 2km at this point is restricted is a mystery. When the rule was put into place, Major Factions were restricted to Event Ships and Command Ships (Limited to 2km and Limited Production) many years ago. Since then, Battlecruisers, Flagships, then SSD's have been put into place, increased in size, allowed in higher production, removed, and only just now have Minor Factions been able to have one 2km ship. (Before the most recent Factory Overhaul they were limited to 1km Pc Captained ships).

What's the pain in letting Companies/Minor Factions having ONE Battlecruiser? What's the problem with Companies and Minor Factions having a handful of Star Destroyers?

 

[Ellie Mors]

This thread sounds a lot more like "I don't want to be in a major faction, but I want what they get for the work they put into existing".

There are some things that are reserved for major factions, whether it appears arbitrary or not, and typically they are such in order to give writers a reason to take part in one rather than hiding in the corner and not being forced into interaction with the rest of the site.

That is the pain in letting a minor faction/company have such privileges.

 

[LT-137]

If you need big ships to feel relevant in naval warfare, you shouldn't be fighting in space at all.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Braith Achlys"]

Now that would be asking why I can't own hexes or field massive armies or Dreadnoughts. I actually enjoy the under-dog feeling. You can check any of my Bryn'adûl units most if not all are minor. I don't want to deploy a fleet nor dominate in a fleet. You're mistaking the intent.
But yes, in a way your right. I do wish to be able to remain neutral.

And this isn't about not having to interact, it's about having to shoehorn my character(s) into particular types of interraction.

[member="Khonsu Amon"]
I've never fought in space before, but for me personally it's less so relevancy than to me personally thinking the ruling doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[LT-137]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"] - Honestly? The ruling makes perfect sense. It's more likely that smaller factions would have limited access to large swathes of war material; especially in regards to naval assets. It forces them to reside primarily within the Minor and Limited production range when Ships start getting larger than 500m, which is quite the sandbox to play in if you ask me.

Now, if you want a Battlecruiser? It's already possible with the ruleset that's in place. As per the Anaxes War College, it defines Battlecruisers as any ships between 2,000m and 5,000m. So, you just have to use the "Star Destroyer" classification, but could easily name it a "Battlecruiser." Yes, it sucks that it's Unique, but if you want more - then either make a Faction and become Major, or join the others that currently populate the map.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"]
I'm not saying you, specifically, are invested in having the tools of a major faction without interaction, I'm saying that's why they are kept reserved for major factions - so that players who wish to use them are required to roleplay with other members of the board in order to continue using them.

While I agree that it sucks not having a way to introduce a character into a major faction landscape and thus being deprived of some of the things they have, that's what it has been intended for.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Khonsu Amon"] I disagree.

Limited access perhaps yes, and while it might be 'quite the sandbox' from your point of view. Comparatively, it isn't. A Major faction can have Destroyers and Battlecruisers a plenty but a Private Military can only muster a single bottom barrel Destroyer?

I don't think that, given the general sandbox of Chaos in of itself that this makes sense. Especially given how easily a company can comparatively man a civilian station sixteen times that size.

but if you want more - then either make a Faction and become Major, or join the others that currently populate the map.

Like I said previously. I shouldn't have to shoehorn myself into a faction and play the map-game to have more than one Destroyer or even a B-Cruiser. I think, the fact a Company can build and produce all varieties of items but not man even a few makes less sense than it might when you isolate particular parts of the situation.

For example, as [member="Braith Achlys"] is saying this ruling is intended to make players co-operate. But it also dictates how we interact. Besides, even having three or four Destroyers and a single Battlecruiser? Is dwarfed by the capabilities of a Major Faction.

It's a unnecessary limitation in my opinion. I can field the bestest ground units ever in small groups. But, I can't have a singular Battlecruiser? I think the fleet to ground balancing could use a little tweaking in this area.

 

[LT-137]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"] - A Minor faction can have quite a few star destroyer-sized vessels now, thanks to the sizing update. They can have any number of Star Destroyers that are 1,999m in size, so long as they're Minor or Limited production. You can even have a Battlecruiser too - as I've stated in my last post. Yes, it sucks you're not allowed to use the "Battlecruiser" template, but so what? It's still considered a Battlecruiser.

I think you're over thinking the point and missing the facts entirely, mate.

You're also combining a Minor faction's capabilities to support a starfleet, with that of a Company. Yes, sometimes they can be synonymous - but in truth they're held at separate standards. A company should be able to produce starships of varying sizes, so that a major or minor faction can purchase, and utilize their starships - but they shouldn't be able to utilize their products to the same degree. You can throw Kuat at me all you like, but they're one world amongst untold billions that got lucky by making decently good starships; which allowed them to have the credits to support their massive armada.

Every world, or company on Chaos shouldn't be like Kuat Drive Yards. Period.

EDIT: This statement's been made without touching base on the single line of text that's tucked away in the starship templates. I recognize the fact that the Factory's come under new management and will take some time in order to make sure everything's updated and up to snuff - but solely going off the standardized rules - everything written above is my interpretation of what's listed in that holonet article.

 

[Gir Quee]

EDIT: This statement's been made without touching base on the single line of text that's tucked away in the starship templates. I recognize the fact that the Factory's come under new management and will take some time in order to make sure everything's updated and up to snuff - but solely going off the standardized rules - everything written above is my interpretation of what's listed in that holonet article.

This is an important point to consider, and one that I'm glad you've brought up.

There are currently some mismatches going on between the templates and the table. Those will be rectified in an upcoming factory update. We're working out the specifics of those changes right now.

 

[LT-137]

[member="Gir Quee"] - I had a feeling you'd be on top of it.

I'm just glad I get it in writing now. >:3

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"], Why not just make a minor faction specifically for your company, and only allow those who you want to RP with into the minor faction?

In that case, your company itself, is the Minor faction and therefore, you can have all the resources a Minor faction, AND what a company can have?

This may not answer your question completely, or solve the major problem, but as we are under new management, things may be changing in the next couple weeks to months.

Hold onto your chips for now.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Auberon"]

Fair enough. You and [member="Khonsu Amon"], have given me some stuff to think about.

[member="Gir Quee"]
I appreciate your response, and I'm glad to know you're working on it!