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how is no Hyperdrive not a weakness

Reshmar

Directorate Officer
Character
I have a submission in the factory and have been told that not having a hyperdrive is not a weakness. This makes no sense at all and should be addressed. No hyperdrive has been a weakness since the TIE fighter and before. Not having a hyperdrive means that when you jump into a system you have to deploy your fighters. They can not jump in ready to fight. They can not perform scouting operations. They can not jump out of a system if the battle goes bad they have to be collected by a ship which takes a lot of time. How is this not a weakness? Like I said this has been a weakness since the first tie fighter rolled off the imaginary racks in 1977
 
Factory Judge
Factory Judge
It isn't a weakness in terms of RP however. While it limits a ship's capabilities, it doesn't necessarily diminish that ship's combat abilities, which is where strengths and weaknesses should be primarily focused on. TIEs were still excellent mass-produced fighters, capable of excellent overwhelming firepower in battle and quite lethal, fast, and maneuverable. Inversely, the presence of a hyperdrive didn't add any benefit to the X-Wing's abilities in battle wither. Thus, the hyperdrive is not a strength or a weakness, whether there or not. A very fast or very slow hyperdrive can affect RP, such as a 'Kessel Run' like thread, but it's not a combat element. I hope this helps!
 
Queen of the Echani
Character
The hyperdrive allowed them to perform hit and run maneuvers that larger ships couldn't, however, such as we saw in Rogue One with the raid on the Imperial research facility where Orso died. That is a combat maneuver.

Additionally, micro-jumps are an often used tactic in RP and are impossible with fighters that lack a hyperdrive.
 
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Reshmar

Directorate Officer
Character
not being able to be deployed at the start of a battle and not being able to be recovered at the end make a damn big difference in the battle deploying 72 fighters will take a half-hour easy. In a fleet battle, time is everything if you spend 30 minutes in battle deploying fighters your dead. Hyperdrives are part of a ship. Part of what makes a ship a ship. There is more to ships than I am here pew pew who wins. I have been part of skirmishes and battles where we ran from system to system and Hyperdrives mattered then. Saying hyperdrives do not matter is a very limited view of starship battle. If hyperdrives do not matter then everyone will have a class 0.3 hyperdrive. You can not say "oh if it is lower it matters" because if that matters then so does a slower one.

Making starships is fun. we do it because we love doing it. For the people who love it. Hyperdrives do matter because we see ships as more than a weapon for an invasion. Some of us write real stories around starships and fleet engagements and Hyperdrives make a big difference in these. I write far more stories outside of invasion than I do invasion and for someone to tell me a major part of a starships design does not matter is criminal. So if the factory says Hyperdrives do not matter then I will make all of my drives class 0.3. I will not use hyperdrives for balance fine I can live with that because balance means very little in fleeting. But it is a shame because you are removing a very important aspect of shipbuilding and design and the forum will be the worse for it.
 

Jsc

Cali Surfer Bum
Writer
All Judges be cray man. It's Star Wars. Nobody knows how this stuff works.

Anyway. Holdo Maneuvers and Galaxy Guns aside. If a sub don't work out? Just wait two weeks and resub something 99% similar under a new name. You'll probably get a new judge, with a new opinion, and it will pass, and nobody will care.

Done. Easy.

Now you can get back to ignoring "Factory Balance" and just RP your non-nonsensical technobabble space ship anyway. :p
 
Momma Bear
Character
Having a hyperdrive is more important to RP than how fast or slow it is. If the rating of a hyperdrive is taken into balance consideration, then so should having a hyperdrive in the first place.

Things you can't do without a hyperdrive:
  • Flee from a space battle without putting it into the hangar of a bigger ship (which a capital ship can't do)
  • Arrive into strategic positions during a space battle via micro/normal jumps from hyperspace
  • use hyperspace at all
  • Bring in large amounts of forces into one area
To say that none of the above matter in RP only tells me that the people making this decision have decided that RP (which is combat RP, specifically invasions) that utilize the mechanics of hyperdrive do not matter.
 
Momma Bear
Character
It isn't a weakness in terms of RP however. While it limits a ship's capabilities, it doesn't necessarily diminish that ship's combat abilities, which is where strengths and weaknesses should be primarily focused on
Being able to enter and exit a field of battle, in nearly any part of the field of battle a la teleportation, is an excessively advantageous strength. It isn't just a travel mechanic in normal social threads, it's used extensively in naval RP on the board during invasions and during skirmishes and other ship-related RP when combat is part of the picture and large fleets are involved. This is literally, by definition, a combat ability.
TIEs were still excellent mass-produced fighters, capable of excellent overwhelming firepower in battle and quite lethal, fast, and maneuverable. Inversely, the presence of a hyperdrive didn't add any benefit to the X-Wing's abilities in battle wither. Thus, the hyperdrive is not a strength or a weakness, whether there or not
I'm going to go ahead and address the elephant in the room: the X-Wing is the basis for the factory's starship ratings for starfighters. The reason why it doesn't seem, compared to chaos-related ships, like having a hyperdrive makes much of a difference to its other features is because all of its features, including the hyperdrive, are what we consider an "average" rating on a ship. It is the entire basis of how the factory judges other ships that are submitted to the factory. You can't seriously tell me that because the weaknesses of the X-Wing and its strengths balance each other out as an average rating across the board that it has no strengths or weaknesses. The very TIE fighter you reference you proceed to explain how its strengths are balanced out with its weakness of not having a hyperdrive.

This is a literal contradiction.
A very fast or very slow hyperdrive can affect RP, such as a 'Kessel Run' like thread, but it's not a combat element. I hope this helps!
As I explained already, this is the most narrow view of how people use starships there is.

How is a star destroyer with a low speed rating a weakness, but having no hyperdrive isn't? In fact, how are any ships that lack core features or have diminished core features found in the basic canon ships that we based the rating system in the factory off of considered retaining "real and genuine" weaknesses but having no hyperdrive isn't?

How does a star destroyer get from one point in the galaxy to another to take part in an invasion without a hyperdrive? How does a star destroyer flee a losing fleeting engagement without a hyperdrive?

Why is having a HIMS a strength, but having no hyperdrive is not a weaknesss? Why are any "special" and "advanced" features centered around hyperspace strengths, but not having a hyperdrive isn't a weakness?

None of this makes any sense.
 
Sith Science is Best Science
Character
Playing the Devil's Advocate for a moment, Hyperdrives in canon seemed more like something whose absence is either because of cost-saving measures (TIE Fighters, CIS droid fighters) or because the fighter is too small (Jedi Starfighters and quite possibly CIS droid fighters, though I would think the cost-saving point was most important in regards to the latter). We don't really see vessels ditch Hyperdrives for added performance, as far as I'm aware, which makes it seem like the primary obstacle to their inclusion is price.

Of course, price matters very little on Chaos. I personally try to keep it reasonable and every once in a while I throw out a submission whose based around the idea that "quantity has a quality all of its own", but I am most certainly not arguing for the inclusion of an economy system.

Now, in order to make the choice on whether to include a Hyperdrive or not a meaningful choice balance-wise, perhaps change it so that the ratings are simply "None", "Average", or "Very Fast" - that way we don't stray too far from the canon, where almost everything but bargain-bin Starfighters have Hyperdrives, while simultaneously not making it something that doesn't matter whatsoever outside of fluff.

Not that I don't love fluff - that and aesthetics often interest me more than the balance itself.
 

Reshmar

Directorate Officer
Character
If you want to make it not count towards the rating system that is fine. But you can not say faster counts but slower or none does not. If we have to take a hit for a faster rating then we should get a plus for a slower or none. In the grand scheme of things no it does not matter if all you do is Invasions because very few people do Invasion Fleeting correctly. They try to treat it like a Dual and it is not even close. You have dozens of fighters to keep up with. Your escorting ships to manage. Your command ship to spotlight. Your commanders, communications officers, Tactical officers, Engineering officers, Security officers, Wing Commander, Flight leaders, Boarding parties to deal with, various weapons to use and to counter, armor, shielding, reactors engines thrusters, strengths, weaknesses, and yes hyperdrives also. If you approach fleeting as a dual then no Hyperdrives do not matter. But if you approach fleeting as a dual then you are doing it wrong in the first place. It is about characters more than weapons or ships or maneuvers. You have at least a dozen characters you have to keep up with and manage. It is like role-playing an entire squad on the ground. My point is a fleet battle has a lot of moving parts and one of them is the hyperdrive, how it works, how to stop it from working, how to stop the stopping of it working, how to stop the stopping of the stopping of the stopping, so on so forth. so from a limited view of fleeting and starships in general no it does not matter but if your doing it right is very much matters.
 
Directorate Officer
Factory Judge
Adrian Vandiir Adrian Vandiir , the presence of a hyperdrive is known to affect flight performance. This is from Solo Command, page 178 and 179 where they talk about hyperdrive-equipped Tie Interceptors :

"Keep it slow," Kell said, "and keep it sluggish until we break. Remember, we're supposed to be flying hyperspace-equipped, less maneuverable - they'll already have been told what they're facing."

That trick, pretending to be heavily laden with hyperdrives, wouldn't work a second time, Kell knew.
In terms of cost, we do know costs and weights for hyperdrives for small freighters from Galaxy Guide 6 Tramp Freighters

HyperdriveCostWeight
x115,000 credits18 metric tons
x210,000 credits15 metric tons
x37,00012 metric tons
x44,000 credits10 metric tons
x5 (single use, emergency drive)2,500 credits8 metric tons

For some context in prices, top-grade military ion drives go for about 500,000 credits and weigh 24 metric tons and typical commercial ion drives cost about 50,000 credits and weigh 16 metric tons. A heavy laser cannons costs 3,000 credits and weighs 4 tons. A high-end shield generator costs 10,000 credits and weighs 10 tons. while a low-end shield generator costs 4,000 and weighs 6 tons.

My general point is that hyperdrives aren't incredibly expensive compared to other ship components. If you're making a mass produced ship though, every credit can count.
 

Reshmar

Directorate Officer
Character
Imagine you get to a battlefield and sit in the transport for thirty minutes while the people in front of you deploy. 30 minutes of ships shooting it out while you just sit there. Bam! your ship explodes before you deploy. Or Imagine your team lost and your on the field with no way to escape nowhere to run and all you can do is die. That is what the weakness of not having a hyperdrive is.
 
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