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 Hex Gains for factions that successfully defend from an Invasion?

Do you like the idea?


  • Total voters
    83

Matt the Radar Tech

ᴛɪɴᴋᴇʀɪɴɢ ᴀᴡᴀʏ ᴏɴ ʀᴀᴅᴀʀs
Outside of extreme examples, you can thread nearly any IC reasoning to an OOC situation. If a thing happens, you have the capability to frame it to work IC.

Don't think of the new rule as a hindrance- think of it as a challenge, to use to improve your IC plots and push your narrative into new and (possibly uncomfortable) interesting areas.

Alternatively, take more consideration with invasions, rather than just hitting the red button and shouting "Invasion go brrrr!"
 
It boils down to escalating stakes for attackers, with a softened--but still real--risk on their first invasion:

The first invasion (the attacker hasn't invaded this faction recently)
  • If the attacker wins, they take the territory they targeted, or flip it neutral.
  • If the defender wins, they gain neutral hexes equal to the targeted number, up to 3.
Repeat invasion against the same target (the attacker invades the same faction again within a set window)
  • If the attacker wins, they take the territory they targeted, or flip it neutral.
  • If the defender wins, they can take that many hexes from the attacker, or flip them neutral.

Example: Jedilovers69 invades Huttenthusiasts1337. It's their first invasion, so the Jedi don't stake any territory. If the Jedi win, they take the hexes they targeted. If they lose, they keep everything, but the Hutts grow their cloud.

If the Jedi invade the Hutts again next month, regardless of how the first one went, it's a repeat invasion. Now the Jedi's territory is on the line too.

--



Almost. Going on the offensive here wouldn't be risk-free. If the attacker loses, they gain nothing, but the defender does. A failed invasion grows their target's cloud and leaves them worse off relative to the faction they attacked.

To be upfront, this isn't full equality. In a first invasion, the attacker can take the defender's territory, while the defender can only gain neutral hexes. Full equal stakes apply once an attacker keeps coming back to the same target.

But I would argue this bit of imbalance is one to keep. We already see very few invasions. Folks don't seem enthusiastic to go on the attack. And my previous reasoning about affecting small, newer and more isolated factions disproportionately still applies.

I hope this makes the idea more clear. Srina Talon Srina Talon

I am so dumb. I get it now! I was missing turning the hexes neutral on the first attack, and that was blowing my mind.

I'm not amped to keep some level of imbalance present, but I can see what you're saying now. Invasions don't happen more often than they do because they typically take an entire MONTH to get through. Everything else gets put on hold, managing members is wild (I love you guys, but sometimes ya'll be crazy AF), negotiating with factions (especially factions where people don't get along, or they DO and just have very headstrong leaders), and all that is without even looking at the rules. I'm sure current and past MFOs and Staff Teams can back me up on that one.

The culture of the website has changed since 2022. We talk more. We don't generally just nail each other to the wall (rare exceptions, yes), and those efforts to NOT be salty or have the appearance of salt take work. I'm just a member. I don't do any of the hard stuff, and TBH I just show up and look pretty.

But...By the end of an invasion, even if I had an absolute BLAST I feel drained lol. Maybe that's just me, but I'm like...Yo...I need to sleep for a week.

Is that just me? Anyone else want a nap and a pint of ice cream? Yes? No?

TLDR: There are a lot of reasons invasions DO and don't happen, some better, some worse, but I don't necessarily think this mandate/rule change would discourage them when the cost is potentially three hexes. That can be made up and then some (encircling, whatnot) with the four PVE Threads allotted in a month. In the end, the cost would be relatively small for the benefit of equal footing.

For showing the community that all writers and all stories matter.
 

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TL;DR: Fair invasion stakes are a good goal, but they impact small, less-connected factions hardest. Add the stakes for evenly matched fights and for factions punching down, but soften them when small factions punch up.

TLDR: There are a lot of reasons invasions DO and don't happen, some better, some worse, but I don't necessarily think this mandate/rule change would discourage them when the cost is potentially three hexes. That can be made up and then some (encircling, whatnot) with the four PVE Threads allotted in a month. In the end, the cost would be relatively small for the benefit of equal footing.

I'm aligned with the goal of fairness, which is why I raised the issues and concerns I did.

This change benefits established players the most, whether anyone intends it or not. The extent can be argued. I think it's a big impact, others will say it's small, but the direction stays the same. We get invasion fairness, but the change hits small factions harder than big ones, especially ones that aren't well connected.

I like to go to bat for the outsiders and weirdoes, and this change disadvantages them. In my experience, it's often the small factions that invade. They want to change things up, shake the status quo a bit, or carve out their own place in the community.

Established factions, on the other hand, have little reason to change the status quo. If I'm top dog, I have no reason to invite risk by turning another top dog against me through an invasion. I'll keep doing my monthly PvE threads with the occasional Faction thread or Skirmish tossed in. That's a healthy mode for big players, but it risks stagnation.

The more the balance shifts toward big factions, the more we get a rich-get-richer system. That's why I argue for a softened version of this change: add stakes for evenly matched factions and for punching down, but don't remove all the advantages small factions get punching up.

Adding risk to invasions narrows access to the map for outsiders, who have more to lose. They don't have the same manpower as big factions, and are often lucky to manage four PvE threads a month. Now they'd risk three of their own hexes to invade. 3 out of 5 hexes is a catastrophic loss. 3 out of 50 is a rounding error.

Most of us have been new at some point, and know that when every way in depends on an invitation, the people on the inside control who gets in and who doesn't--even when everyone's being friendly. Invasions are one door that didn't need an invitation. They've been used for harassment in the past, to impose on others, and that's still possible. They're a flawed door, but they're the one we've got.

We talk more now, yes, and outsiders can, in theory, just reach out. But friendliness doesn't change the structure. Newcomers have to know who to ask, feel comfortable asking, and get a yes to be let in. The factions on the inside hold the cards.

Do I think changing things up by force is the best way to do it? No, but that's the main method available to outsiders and the main one the map game currently allows. The bigger question is how outsiders get access to the map game at all, and that deserves its own discussion. Until then, I don't want to narrow the one door without a gatekeeper.

We should make all writers and all stories matter, but this change makes established factions' stories matter more than others'.


At this point, one more big thank you for giving the community this platform. I know I've been a headache, no doubt, which is why I don't want to undersell my appreciation for getting the chance to make my case.
 
I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate that you're trying to look out for smaller or less-established factions. It's a different angle that I wouldn't have really investigated, considering that we already have a few safeguards in place.

1.) Major Faction receives a maximum of 7 starting adjacent hexes (Not 5) of their choice for their starting influence cloud.
2.) New Major Factions may not be invaded for the first 30 days after their application is approved unless they initiate an Invasion first.

Within 30 days, a faction can make room for any potential loss by utilizing the 4 PVE threads available per calendar month. If they choose to invade, they do sacrifice that protection; however, this change would benefit them if they get invaded afterwards. Traditionally, factions also tend to build up a little and then start making waves. While it is not always the case, there is more to the map game than just invading that a new faction with new members might want to explore. There are also diplomacy efforts and junctions where a cloud can be preemptively grown. Look at the MIR for an example of this.

Some mandates do force clouds to stay smaller (Eternal Fleet, for example...But it also has a get out of jail free card where the faction can teleport and get their hexes back, no harm, no foul...), but that is a risk that would need to be weighed by the MFO. Not me, not you.

Regardless, overall, I do like your concerns because it does cause me to double-check the site rules and make sure the other contingencies are still in play. It also makes me check them because sometimes we leave fragments of old rules behind by accident. I just, of course, stubborn me, disagree with some of the assumptions we're using to get to the point you're trying to make. Some of them just aren't quite true.

For starters, I don't think faction size or age is a particularly reliable indicator of who launches Invasions. Big factions invade, small factions invade, new factions invade, and old factions invade. In my experience, it has much more to do with faction culture, alignment, leadership, and whether the group enjoys PvP than how established they are.

I also think we're looking at smaller factions almost exclusively as attackers in this scenario. What happens when that same five-hex faction is defending against a fifty-hex faction? Right now, they can lose three hexes but gain absolutely nothing if they win. This change would give them an opportunity they don't currently have.

I agree that losing 3 out of 7 hexes is a much bigger deal than losing 3 out of 50. That's fair. But the attacking faction also chooses how many hexes to put on the line. If a smaller faction doesn't want to risk three hexes, it doesn't have to invade for three. It can invade for one.

I'm also not sure how we'd fairly determine who's punching up or punching down. Hex count doesn't necessarily reflect membership, activity, PvP experience, or how capable a faction actually is. I've seen smaller groups with incredibly active writers and larger groups that struggle to field enough people for an Invasion. I wouldn't want to introduce a system where we have to start measuring which faction is stronger before deciding what rules actually apply because it is often subjective.

I think the accessibility of the map game for newer factions is absolutely worth discussing, but I don't think this change necessarily makes it less accessible. The requirements to launch an Invasion remain exactly the same. The difference is that both factions now have something to gain or lose.

And while I understand that established factions may be better equipped to absorb territorial losses, that's already true when they're defending. This proposal doesn't create that disparity. The difference is that smaller factions would now have the same opportunity to benefit from successfully defending that larger factions already have when attacking.

I don't think we have enough information to conclude that smaller factions are disproportionately responsible for Invasions or that this change would primarily benefit established groups. Recently, I've seen Invasions in the last 6 months with HR/SO/SC/IC...None are all that new. And none, but the IC were small. Not to mention that the IC's smaller cloud was also due to its chosen Mandate, rather than necessarily reflecting its membership or ability to participate in PvP.

This is just a pretty significant conclusion to draw without noting how Invasions have actually happened.

I'm not opposed to potential safeguards should the need arise...I just don't think the answer is necessarily to preserve an advantage for whichever faction happens to be attacking.

More or less, I'm pretty sure we want the same thing...But in contrast to your perspective and the data you may have acquired to support your theory, I think that it is just as important to allow all defending factions the opportunity to gain something tangible.

We should make all writers and all stories matter, but this change makes established factions' stories matter more than others'.

Again, my big bucket of hope offers this up. All faction stories matter, big, small, existing, new, aggressive, passive. I'm not going to go down a path of "existing factions" somehow deserving less just because they happen to have appeared on map a year ago. That defeats the entire purpose. With something like this, any potential MFO would need to prepare and weigh their choices carefully. Is invading worth the chance in the first 30 Days? Do I want to take that time to build my cloud first? To reach out to the other factions? Use the MFO Room on Discord (that they all must join) to collaborate?

A lot of invasion rules/mandates work as intended as they are now because the community, MFO's, members, etc. make them work.

I can't change the culture with a rule....But we can try to offer a consistent, understandable rule or mandate that gives defenders and attackers meaningful rewards. It is preferable to a system where consequences depend on subjective assessments of which faction is "stronger" because more "hexes" doesn't always mean that.

Pretend that you were writing the rule or mandate for this in your ideal circumstances.

What would that look like to you? Remember, it has to be easily understood because if the community doesn't understand the rules as written - How can they follow them?
 

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