Good and Evil and Star Wars

[Lord Ghoul]

Because @[member="Sarge Potteiger"] wanted the discussion moved elsewhere and because I don't like wasting words I already typed:

You do not question when we try murderers, or thieves, so why question when we hunt down Sith? Often they are the same people as the other criminals, just with Force Sensitivity

Speaking OOCly, this viewpoint is pretty detrimental. Equating a philosophical set of beliefs to the crimes committed by some of its followers and then hunting down all followers of said belief? What could go wrong? It's not like droning villages in Yemen because they're Sunnis like Al-Qaeda. It's not like the world turning a blind eye to the entire Palestinian population because of Black September's actions at the Munich Olympics. It's not like the U.S. containment policy in East Asia that led to Vietnam, even though Ho Chi Minh was a socialist nationalist, not a communist.

I mean, it's not like the Fringe is full of Dark Siders fighting monsters or anything. Because that would be inconceivable!

But hey, those have all worked great in the past. I'm sure this policy will too.

I think most people could stand to watch the Clone Wars in its entirety. We've strayed so far from how the universe is portrayed its laughable. The very intellectual idea that Jedi are religious zealots no better than Sith holds weight OOC, but IC holds none. Because this is Star Wars.
A place where there's no doubt who is good and who is evil, because the entire storyline revolves around Good vs Evil - not Slightly Better vs Slightly Worse, or Zealot vs. Criminal.

Clone Wars may be good source material, but you should read the Fate of the Jedi series. It's made pretty clear that there is a lot of ambiguity here. The Jedi might do the right thing most of the time, but there are some Jedi Masters who do the wrong thing with right intentions. And public opinion certainly sways.

I would also like to think that we aren't stuck in the bland philosophical view of Lucas where everything is pure, crisp black and white. We are writers. We create things. EU created storylines wrapped in battles of right and wrong and the struggle of what is the right thing, because it's not always clear. Caedus, Cade Skywalker. Stark black and white makes for a good movie, but a bad read. There aren't many books I've read in my life where a lack of cognitive dissonance creates emotional attachment to the morally invincible protagonist. (Much in the same way that I hate reading about Jedi who are invincible to the pull of the dark side, or who always make the right decision 100% of the time. No. You're wrong. Some of you are Stannis Baratheons and yes, those are people you're burning alive, not heretics.)

 

[Skorn Draclau]

To add one more thing to this, I thought it was pretty clear that the age of Chaos is set far ahead in time from the movies era. A gulag plague that sent the entire galaxy into the dark ages for 500 years should be enough to make the general public forget most of the established dogma, which would include the standard Jedi image as saviors and Sith image as oppressors. At best there would be hints remaining, a general impression maybe but nothing so concrete that would let the public digest Jedi just randomly arresting dudes off the streets by claiming that they are Sith without any evidence or cause to back that up.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

@[member="Skorn Draclau"]

Considering the fact that Darth Apparatus used a superweapon to kill everyone on Donanyd and turned it into a lifeless husk to make a point, Velok vaporised Rhommamool and Osarian for the lulz and Sith committed genocide on Togoria, I very much doubt their image would be the best. Not to mention Mikhail and Jacen turning a good part of Coruscant into their personal playground.

Of course, the Republic has the whole sinking a large chunk of Ahto City and a Jedi master killing lots of Republic-friendly POWs on Metalorn thing. Along with general imperialism, but then every major power is imperialist. That's the point of being on the map, to expand and dominate. Either that or you get swallowed up by more powerful neighbours. Not every group razes planets for the fun of it though!

So I very much doubt the Sith would suddenly get a PR bonus and be seen as benevolent overlords who bring 'order', which in itself is a platitude that often gets thrown around as an empty slogan, instead of being loathed. After all, the Jedi Crusade was a counterreaction to what the Sith did. People would...not be very concerned about 'civil rights' for Sith, who sort of have a history of...trampling on other people's rights while exalting themselves. Does that make the Jedi shining paragons who can do no wrong? No, it most certainly does not and one could name several examples that indicate the opposite, but then 'perfect heroes' are boring and unrealistic. Spent quite some time in several threads with Siobhan deconstructing that...but then she's not even remotely a good person. It does not make them equal to the Sith though.

As for arresting suspected Sith without evidence...Sio totally disapproves of that. She'd want to carry out instant judgement right on the spot! No trial needed!

 

[Darth Veles]

I'll repost my post here.

I'll use this opportunity to announce that Avreet has never seen any genocide from the Sith side, never committed any war crimes, never murdered anyone, never took drugs, never hurt a civilian, always wanted to bring peace to the galaxy and saved many innocents. But who cares, he is a Sith. What a monster!

Sith in movies were made to have no redeeming qualities. They were villains, someone powerful who stood against the main characters. That does not mean they all have to be genocidal jerks here. They are not simple villains that only serve the good guys as someone to fight against. They have their own ideals, views, reasons. In another words, they are not here just to make the Jedi look like good heroes who fight against tyranny and what else. Sure, there are people who write their characters as moustache twirling villains who wake up and think who will they hurt today, but should that be the reason to hunt down all Sith? Simply because they are Sith? If my character was captured, what would they possibly charge him with? He has a red lightsaber and dark clothes?

 

[Arage Bao]

Simple matter is this, in Lucas's mind the Darkside itself was a corruption to your soul and such. It influenced your mind, and warped your personality. Bad people were made worse, and the good people got their bad traits enhanced.

But here is the deal. We ain't canon. Our universe is -already- so far off from Lucas's portrayal, that I do not see a reason why we should keep enforcing the bland: "Oh. Darkside? Well, you must have murdered children in their sleep, and made planets explode with that fancy Deathstar of yours."

We are writers, we are creators and in my opinion, George made a great oversight by implying there was a stark difference between people who used the Darkside and people who used the Lightside. Intentions -should- matter. Your willpower -should- have a meaning.

Now, I am not saying that Jedi should stop hunting on the Darksiders, that is not the point. Because, the Jedi -have- reasons to mistrust the Sith and practitioners of the Darkside. Millennias of bad blood, wars waged and dreams shattered does not just go away that easily.

Keep in mind though, the first Sith were Jedi and in canon the Je'daii believed in true balance. I think a new movement should arise, on both sides of the spectrum, to try and close the distance. Get away from the "Using darkside, you are Darth Moridin.".

Just my two cents.

 

[Aran Finn]

I think most people could stand to watch the Clone Wars in its entirety. We've strayed so far from how the universe is portrayed its laughable. The very intellectual idea that Jedi are religious zealots no better than Sith holds weight OOC, but IC holds none. Because this is Star Wars. A place where there's no doubt who is good and who is evil, because the entire storyline revolves around Good vs Evil - not Slightly Better vs Slightly Worse, or Zealot vs. Criminal.

I disagree. As writers, amateur as most of us may be, we should only be encouraged to write complex stories with three-dimensional characters, not discouraged because "this is Star Wars". If I wrote Alen as a traditional Darksider (the villain), I'd only grow bored with the concept quickly and discard him in order to write someone with more complexity, and thus a more interesting character. The fact that I get to play Alen as a good guy and a darksider is what keeps me coming back to the board to write.

There's no reason why darksiders can't be inherently good, as I've known many angry people with a high degree of morality. That used to be me to some extent. And I don't see why we can't have characters like that.

Good people with good intentions can do terrible things. Sith can have good intentions and do great things. There is plurality in everything.

 

[Brin Vext]

sorry i should have posted here and not in the GA thread

@Sarge Potteiger
i think if starwars teaches us nothing else it is that everything is in gray...
ok so in IV V and VI it is very clear who is good and bad but I II III and the clone wars are intended to show you the grays.... the messy gritty side of starwars, the part were no one is good and no one is bad... the CIS was not Evil, it was no different to the Republic. the clone wars has a few amazing episodes were is shows the war from "non republic" views and the jedi are seen as warmongers... evan by some in the republic... that is exactly what is happening here...
AND I LOVE IT!!! WOO POLITICS!!!

and may i add that in most SW canon and EU the sith want peace... just by different means

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Crisp works for short and specific stories, not for long term, and certainly not for wide-range RP and storytelling.

When I rule the Galaxy, you'll all be under my peace

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

There is no grey side of the Force! There is only the shining light and the dark abyss. Once you have gone down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny!

I guess Siobhan is falling into the pit then. What with being anger filled, seeing the Force as a tool, using force lightning at times and generally being pretty ruthless, when she is not being a wet hen. Well, I like moral ambiguity. She was specifically designed because I did not want a shining paragon. I would certainly not call her 'good' though.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

@[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"] I like the lightsiders. They're very useful tools for my expanding darkness

 

[Aran Finn]

@[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"] That's Alen to a T, without the whole Force Lightning mumbo jumbo

 

[Brin Vext]

There is no grey side of the Force! There is only the shining light and the dark abyss

are we all forgetting about this guy

 

[Dredge]

There's no good or evil. It's all perception. What your perception is, is your reality. You are all discussing good and evil when really it doesn't exist in any realm of reality. It's all just perception.

Did you hear that, yeah that was the sound of your mind being blown

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

@[member="Alen Na'Varro"]

Lol. Fun coincidence. Well, Sio generally prefers telekinesis of the smashing and throwing very heavy things variety. Lightning gets used when she's really pissed. Hmm. Girl needs more hobbies. Or some actual work...like her own paperwork. Or finally settle down into decadent aristoness.

@[member="Brin Vext"]

* waves hand vaguely using the awesome power of force handwavium * I dismiss that claim.

 

[Brin Vext]

* waves hand vaguely using the awesome power of force handwavium * I dismiss that claim.

that my friend is called cheating.... you cant dismiss force theology that was based off note written by george lucas himself

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

I dismiss a number of things he made. Like Han not shooting first, the Mandalorians turning into pacifists and Maul surviving being cleaved in half and going on a long tumble into a pit. I'm egocentric that way.

In any case I was being sarcastic. Siobhan does have a Neutral Master rank bar after all. Not sure what the 'neutral' part means though, beyond her not following a specific force religion!

 

[Brin Vext]

ok the Han shooting 1st thing is a separate issue.... he changed that for a reason.... a stupid reason but as i sed, its a separate issue.

it is his world that he created and i might not like everything but i respect what he has made.

 

[Darth Athora]

But here is the deal. We ain't canon. Our universe is -already- so far off from Lucas's portrayal, that I do not see a reason why we should keep enforcing the bland: "Oh. Darkside? Well, you must have murdered children in their sleep, and made planets explode with that fancy Deathstar of yours."

I love this.

 

[Darth Athora]

@[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"] I like the lightsiders. They're very useful tools for my expanding darkness

I'm sorry but I see literally nothing dark about you, lol.

 

[Marek S'hadar]

@[member="Nessarose deWinter"] I'm with @[member="Cavinash"], you ain't evil.