Feedback Factions (And How to Kill Them)

[Dak]

So, I wanted to make this a suggestion thread originally, but admittedly I couldn’t really think of a tangible one to present. Instead, I thought I’d make it a discussion and see what others think/if anyone shares my current woes.

Does anyone else think it should be easier for major factions to die?

Right now most majors die from inactivity and pretty much all wars these days are won through OOC attrition. One side gets bored, busy or upset and opts to bail… then fail to pass an activity check and poof away. It’s so easy to start a major faction, why does it have to be so damn tedious to take one out? I don’t know what it is yet, but there’s gotta be a better and more interesting way.

I get that major factions are mini communities and that some people have invested a lot into them. I know lots of people who give 110% to the factions they're involved with (I've certainly put my fair share of effort in) but personally, I still don’t think major factions should live as long as they do right now. I want to stress that this is not meant to be targeted at any faction in particular. I think the selection of majors we have on the board right now is solid, but I don’t even want the Galactic Alliance to survive for years and years. Hell, we’ve got contingency plans / future narratives to take ourselves out if we have to.

Factions having a lifespan is important to keep things fresh. Wouldn’t it be more interesting to see the map shift around more? Maybe not every damn week, but having some new ideas come and go and territory trading back and forth would certainly spice things up. The map has been stagnant for so long that it feels like we’ve reached a point where any threat of change causes an uproar.

If it was easier for factions to start, quickly grow and be killed/die, maybe we’d all be more encouraged to work together and write some shared narratives. I can’t be alone in thinking that it’d be way more interesting to have factions writing narratives where one side wins/loses territory on purpose, or is even completely destroyed only to return from the ashes as something new (like the First Order from the Galactic Empire) and continuing the cycle. But most wouldn't even consider doing something like that if it meant giving up months or even years of dominion threads for the sake of story.

The way things are right now, I think the system promotes a weird clique culture. We can deny it all we want, but things tend to become ‘us vs. them’ as they are. People are passionate, that’s fine and great, but if it was more normal for majors to come and go perhaps we’d all be more inclined to cooperate and tell stories as the GALAXY rather than as just the GA, NIO, CIS, SJO, etc.

(inb4 bUt DaK tHeReS nOtHiNg StOpPiNg AnYoNe FrOm DoInG tHaT rIgHt NoW. We all know that’s not entirely true.)

 

[Avo]

Folks have egos and like seeing their playthings last through the years. It's always hard to see a little community with your insider lore, stories, and effort disappear overnight because a newbie dweeb wants to take up your space on the map. The same can be said for a lot of things in real life as well - it's pretty easy to start things and letting them go is a lot harder.

But if you are suggesting something to 'amp up' the map & faction game, I want REGULAR MAP WIPES.


Sure, it's hard letting go of that smudge of MS paint from the map but this will help stir up the pot for the map game and allow older factions to maintain their presence while also allowing the newbies to get their hands into the mix. It'd even the odds between old powerhouses, help clean up factions for those that aren't active when the map wipes, and provide ample opportunity for new factions to clash with veteran ones.

How to go about it? Make a site-wide poll for some galactic-scale event that causes the factions to diminish in power ICly. Could be economic recession. Could be another plague. Could be the fact that we are literally at war 24/7 and this causes strain on nation-states. Idk. Just food for thought.

Legal Disclaimer: These opinions are mine and not that of Chaos staff. smiley face.

 

[Irveric Tavlar]

Agree 100%. As far as my experience in managing/participating in RP factions (which are as dak said, individual communities all its own) the climb is almost always more entertaining for everyone involved both within and without the group. This is Star WARS where the Galaxy is never at rest, never stagnant and the systems in place should reflect that to a degree in contrast to the slog of painting the map your color and then becoming vehemotely territorial over it because of all the work the faction put into making it, which is understandable to a degree.

These things take a great deal of work to create, manage, cultivate and expand but facing the end shouldn't be anything bitter because its inevitable to every group. Dak and my own certainly no exception from this because the eventual change and flow of the greater site narrative away from what we can represent or even revamping or revitalizing similar ideas is crucial to maintaining an interesting setting instead of keeping the same old crowd taking up large swathes of the map at any given time. I think a lot of what makes the end so bitter for a lot of people is the build up to begin with, so maybe if the hill to climb was a little bit easier (or at the very least, a hell of a lot less tedius), people wouldn't be so bitter when it came time to hang it up and move onto new ideas and fresh concepts.

 

[Kruw'lut'aerta]

I get it. Eventually, the vibe becomes lost. I mean this is how the Corporate Protectrate died

Me: "I'm done dude. It was cool while it lasted"

My Then Admins: "Yea, kid, how we go kill it tho"

Me: "Let's just not post anymore. We just be inactive, get a recall and be done with it"

My Then Admins: "Yeet"

I mean...a lifespan would be dope. But can I also suggest every few years a Major Faction is around and is consitently active, I belive should be offered a reset allowed to stay a Major faction but also awarded the chance to simpky redo stuff and virtually create a new faction to keep intrest. Thats just me tho

 

[Dak]

I mean...a lifespan would be dope.

I should clarify: I don't mean a literal ticking clock kinda lifespan. Just that all factions should, eventually, come to an end. And it should be easier to help facilitate that process.

 

[LT-137]

One could argue that faction's could willingly remove themselves from the map by starting a minor faction vote and posting about their faction's removal in the map update thread, but ... I suppose the common stigma people think of, is that if they wait around long enough, some miracle will happen where a wellspring of activity comes from nowhere and saves their faction from the chopping block?

 

[Melia Siari]

Every faction that exists today is not the same faction as it was when it was created. The Silver Jedi Order wasn't even "The Silver Jedi Order" when it started, it was the Silver Jedi and the Levantine Sanctum who later merged together into the Silver Sanctum and then renamed themselves to the Silver Jedi Order - and it wasn't just name changes, they were very different groups with very different members and identities from where they started.

The Silver Jedi Order of 3 years ago was very different (and the SJO has been around in some manner since at least 2014, if not 2013, and has never gone minor or been recalled), and even before that it was much different a year before that, and entirely different than when it was two different factions (the Levantine Sanctum was even two different factions before that).

Similarly, the Sith Empire wasn't the Sith Empire when it went major, and has undergone many identity shifts in the nearly 3 years (2 years, 11 months) it has been around. It's a Sith faction, but even its approach to RP and so on are as different now as the SJO is different from its past. The faction resembles its origin only because its IC leader (who wasn't the faction owner the entire time the faction has been around) was able to hold onto his position in-character the entire time. I doubt the Sith Empire will even be the same faction it is currently by the end of the year, or even in 2 months.

Factions that change and grow survive the map game and retain their activity, factions that remain static and avoid innovating and pivoting stagnate and die. It's why the Galactic Alliance (the original one) died (not because of whatever story you see in the Timeline, it opted to go minor under its own terms because they knew they wouldn't survive for much longer because people were losing interest in a faction that wasn't trying to change to match the changing interests of its members), it's why the One Sith died (again, went minor of its own volition, but they were much closer to death's door than the Galactic Alliance), it's why the Galactic Republic died (ditto with the One Sith).

Making factions die earlier is not going to solve whatever problem you are imagining exists, it is going to just make people more wary of taking part in invasions and less likely to allow their capital to be anywhere near a border. That, in and of itself, is going to do much more harm to site activity than it is going to help.

Before you try to change things through rules, change things through social commentary and proactive or reactive behavior, show people why it's better to not try to drag on the same tired concept after its expiration date - and be mindful, and vocal, that a major faction is more than capable of changing their identity on their own. A major faction can change its name, what it does, how it acts - it doesn't need to "die" or go minor and go major again as a new faction for that to happen.

All this suggestion does is facilitate the game of risk on the map and help turn it further into a board game.

This is a role-playing community, write your stories and learn to end an arc and begin a new one - even in a Major Faction. You don't need to end something to begin something new every time, sometimes you can just change direction.

 

[LT-137]

Melia Siari - I think you misread the OP, as this entire thread is meant to be a discussion - not a suggestion.

 

[Melia Siari]

Melia Siari - I think you misread the OP, as this entire thread is meant to be a discussion - not a suggestion.

I did not misread the OP. The initial post makes quite a few suggestions and offers quite a few perspectives, I am disagreeing with the contents of those views and the suggestions offered there.

As this is a discussion, I offered a structural analysis of why I do not support the views of the OP and actually feel the opposite.

 

[Ryv]

snip

You don't understand the problem if you're arguing in favor of narrative. No matter what direction the rules go, the narrative will continue to exist. This isn't a matter of narrative first, its a matter of a functioning system that doesn't feel like a slog for the folks interested in it. People are here to write Star Wars first. The map is a secondary objective you can opt into caring about. The site's map game is something unique about it, big fun hours. The more dynamic the map, the more dynamic the stories. If a number of majors are rising, falling, dying, and being replaced as they war for the Core, the people who RP in the core will be forced to endure change ICly, and change is not a bad thing. The problem with the same five cucks in charge of faction writing over the course of years is nothing changes. SJO has seen change numerous times, they've had different people running their faction, awesome, grand. OPA has been the same core writing base forever it feels like, and they are all writing a unique idea, but nothing is changing storywise.

I don't care if people put effort into a faction or character, it's all temporary. No one should latch on to a graph paper faction/character and fight tooth and nail to keep it, via OOC means. If the entire galaxy turns on TSE, it shouldn't take three IRL months of back to back contagious assault invasions until you guys are out of territory. The system should support warring factions in ways that a single faction can annihilate another. It shouldn't need to be done through burnout or attrition. Right now, factions are working on eradicating TSE through burnout, rather than a compelling and fun ending.

That seems lame to me.

EDIT: While the map game is a secondary function, it shouldn't be a shoddy or poorly maintained system. I get no one here is a game developer, and none of us can expect a fully functioning rules system like you'd expect in a war game/board game/ttrpg, etc. I just think if the site will offer the map as a function, it shouldn't be such a slog to play the map.

Shorter dominions? Awesome.
Minors go major easier? Awesome.
Majors die faster? Awesome.

Support life and death equally. No group should just exist on a mountain of inadequate writing for years, because the oldest of old heads are at the top.

 

[Jsc]

I think the system promotes a weird clique culture.

Yes. This on purpose. Desperately. Not weirdly. Potently. Not mistakenly. Get on the bandwagon Dak. It's made for the band.

Now. To your main point. Yes. Entrenchment is boring. And I'm all for REGULAR MAP WIPES as the preferred solution.

 

[Melia Siari]

Right now, factions are working on eradicating TSE through burnout, rather than a compelling and fun ending.

That seems lame to me.

That is on the shoulders of the people who are doing things that way.

At the end of the day it was the choice of the writers who opted to try to burn out other writers and it is their fault.

The Sith Empire, or the SJO, or the OPA, or anyone else shouldn't get pulled off of the map because the people who are doing this on purpose suddenly feel like there needs to be a mercy kill button.

The Sith Empire isn't going anywhere, even if you take Bastion, and I assume the Silver Jedi Order would feel the same way if we had continued invading to their capital hex before we stopped. If you find yourself feeling bad for your opposition - or not enjoying what you're doing - because you realize it is wrong then you should realize the issue is not in the system, it is in the person who feels that way.

 

[Anse Baenshaol]

Honestly, as things are now, there is gunna be a point there is no room for new factions. Will it happen soon? No. Its mostly because our map is technically an expanding galaxy and the size of the picture makes the space seem lots smaller and can only fit so much. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a much more expansive map and maybe even bring in say, the underworld for people to chew on.

I think what a problem I see is, this map is all the territory we have to chase/squabble over. Say we had a huge rectangular map, with the known galaxy as a single hex. All those other hexes, could be a new space and if you click on the known galaxy, insert a big rectangular map. Obviously this idea has flaws, I know, but I am mostly using it as an example.

Factions are confined to the current borders which means that older factions who have lots of map will dominate because the map was designed with SW canon in mind. Pith the canon map. I sure as hell know the wild space and etc are a ton bigger than they are and we need a map that properly shows how tiny the known galaxy is in terms of just how much space we have to play with. All that new space would give more reason to grow and give more factions room.

Also, new maps with unexplored territory would breed more creativity and obviously war, but its something new to chew on. Maybe those new maps could be temporary and award prizes for how much was dominated, how long it was held, etc.

I do like the idea of an occasional map wipe event. Especially if we say, at the introduction of a new map. Say certain holes appear in space in places and the territory that controls the portal hex gets first drive into that territory. Makes it less about destroying another faction and more incentive to fight for borders. Maybe even for a time a new enemy from those new reaches must be fought back.

As people have said, things get boring after a few years and I think I for one would like something to shake things up. Maybe an event of a faction of less than x hexes goes dark for a time and factions with x amount of hexes lose x amount of hexes and get x amount of hexes from said enemy on their new border to contend with. Smaller factions get spared technically because they have no borders and bigger find themselves with a set of new sharks.

Again, an example, but like, Chaos is our name damn it and we aren't exactly chaotic in what shakes the writing scene. This is my take on it mind you... Anything that breeds more writing is allllways good xD

 

[Argis Volmir]

Puts down protein shake

Alright, kiddies lets cut to the true meat of this issue. This isn't levied at one group, or one specific group of people. I'm buck shotting this. People take the map game too seriously. People take Chaos too seriously. I get it, I get that you put time, effort, and perhaps even some tears into building up what is on the map. Yet just like anything else there's a time when things run their course. You can fight it, you can complain about it, you can cry about it but eventually in one way or another everyone's time is up. The thing is to enjoy what you had and learn to let go. Invasion burnout shouldn't be a thing, just have fun writing the stories in the Invasions. For me it doesn't matter whether win or lose, I still participate in invasions and have been in numerous ones back to back because they're enjoyable when you think about the stories you can write in them and take your focus off of the map.

This is a hobby, and should remain just that. You should not feel attacked if someone doesn't agree with you on something, or if your faction is being invaded, or even if people aren't participating in Doms the way you want them to. Shit happens but remember this is a forum RP where we come to write Star Wars and just focus on that, the story and potential for greater stories even if it means the death of a faction, the loss of IC clout (Which let's be realistic, if you're worried about that go outside and get some fresh air).

So let's all be civil with one another and if you're getting heated by this, take a step back, cool down and go chill out for a bit.

~Sincerely Waddles

 

[Lucien Dooku]

I think the whole point of the thread is there's no legitimate way to push forwards an IC narrative of deleting a faction through means other than war exhaustion via burnout, or letting yourself curl into a ball of inactivity and die slowly via an activity check.

I'd much prefer if there was a way to go about pushing forwards with the eradication of a faction, with IC intent that is, without having to resort to what inevitably is just burning out the other party or yourselves in the process, but i can't really think of any other way of doing so within the spectrum of invasions/war/diplomacy.

From what I can tell, most major factions are willing to die on the hill that they've built, and since there aren't any real big alternatives to fighting a sustained war other than, well, just being complacent and not doing anything [which is what I saw when I first arrived on chaos], then you kind of just go full circle back to invasions just being about who can outlast the other.

That's just the way it be, it seems. Or at least the way I see things~

Melia Siari

 

[Fatty]

Let the Map Wipes begin with massive Hyperspace Storms that completely disrupt the ability for governments to function for a year. New Major Apps go up, the process begins again until the next freak Hyperspace Storm.

We can make this a regular Galactic Event, and maybe in the wake of these storms dominions can be easier (similar to how it was after the Netherworld map reduction).

I think that'd be neat

 

[Jsc]

Our ability to build things ~ Their ability to break our things

I've always found this to be a frustrating balance to achieve in the map game. And I'd recommend being mindful of this balance moving forward in this discussion too. Stray too much, or push too far, into either territory or suggestion and you'll find yourself surrounded by frustrated people on both sides. You might have to end up suing for compromise on both ends.

Also

Our ability to create new Factions ~ The same people creating new Factions

It's always fun to think that breaking up the big conglomerates eliminates the problem. Alas, what you'll find is that next week, the same people, using the same strategies, building a 'new' Faction, and just keep being themselves. So again. I'd advise against any fantasies about 'shaking things up' or 'killing Major Factions easier' only to settle later into the reality that all the same people are doing all the same things, just with new paint jobs on the business' front door.

2 cents.

 

[Ulkahall Svaraghaun]

So, hello, hi, some of you know me as noctifer

So, faction are a very important thing in Star Wars, as a setting, as a narrative playground. Factions are the lifeblood of the galaxy, and they exist because people will naturally gravitate to groups. I have my own opinions on the map game, and how by and large, it shoe horns natural development and narrative because some people think they're playing a Paradox Game.

Chaos is special because it allows us to correct and explore things that Star Wars never properly dealt with, I mean, I've seen full blown discussions on the philosophy of the Force, the nature of Imperialism, nature versus nurture, and a plethora of nonsense that good old George, Disney, nor Legends authors never tackled in a major way. It's amazing, and has breathed so much life into the fandom for me. It's gotten to the point where my head canon for the SW future is the Chaos universe, because of how well built it is by the collaborative efforts of the writers, it is our own Legends.

That all being said, what was a major component of how Star Wars worked? Analogy and astropolitics. What was one of the major issues in Star Wars because of how they handled it? Analogy and astropolitics.

No matter how you cut it, the factions in SW never felt realistic, the timespans we got felt more like the Imperium of Man than the Old Republic, and in general, real worldbuilding of the nations of the galaxy was never a major concern of most of the writers. They were acronyms that the writers could fling at one another until one of them was left standing.

What does Chaos do better than Legends? Nationbuild, worldbuild, I'd argue that the factions that have come into being on Chaos are unique enough to stand out from what we got from Legends and Disney, even if a lot of them are derivative from the films/legends.

With that also being said, do I think factions live too long to suit the nature of the site? Yea, I really do. I first poked my head in about two years ago, just when TSE was finding it's legs. Come back to stay and they're still around without signs of stopping. I'm not singling anyone out, I would say that most factions historically on Chaos have lived long past their prime, and eventually devolve into just a couple of jabronis shooting the shit. Not that there's anything wrong with that by nature, but when these nations occupy such a large space in Galactic politics, history, and narrative, it can turn into a problem. Again, not saying this is the current state of any faction, I could give less of a damn about what people do. People write to write.

What I do think comes down to the problem is the mindset of these faction creators going in, and how they develop. Factions should have a purpose, an end goal narrative that they strive to get to. And once they reach that, they should be able to evolve in a way that helps the flow of the Galactic narrative, or, even have their own deaths planned. Contingencies, contingencies. That's the name of the game. It helps an overall atmosphere of professional narrative writing and proper worldbuilding fitting the genre.

If people are making factions with the end goal to paint the whole map and to rule for 1000 years, they should play EU4 instead. Much more fun and less effort to do something like that.

Organic faction death breeds good narratives, map wipes would feel artificial and utterly kill some peoples love for Chaos as a setting. Map wipes, by their nature, simply turn the setting of Chaos into more of a mechanical driven nightmare than it needs to be. And I absolutely pray the Staff never implement anything like that, because it takes away the feeling of a natural and changing Galaxy that I, at least, have come to love during my time on the site.

If a nation has to die, they should do so organically, in a way that feels natural. Either by war, dissolution, internal strife, whatever. The Galactic Republic didn't go out with a whimper, it morphed into the Galactic Empire by the scheming of a Sith Lord years in the making.

Meanwhile the Jedi of Chaos turn into Vegemite. I just think it would be more helpful as a whole if people writing factions looked into the idea of assuring an organic death, or narrative end goal, for their nations. We are here to write, not to play a game.

At the end of the day, Chaos can improve so much on the formula we we're left with by Star Wars, and I think that every faction right now is trying their damnedest, but that doesn't mean they should all last forever.

 

[Ra Vizsla]

Lean on Flashpoints. They’re D.N.T.’s last formula to shake up the map.

The rest of it is on us. If we want cliquey large factions leading the social ladder, that’s what we’ll have. Don’t blame the system or Staff - they didn’t create these things, they just allowed for them - and an infinitesimal amount of other opportunities- to occur.

You chose this direction, and it’s in your power to change it.

 

[Argis Volmir]

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Ra Vizsla