Economics

[Darren Onyx]

Has a economical system ever been drawn out for the site? I know we've discussed it in the past plenty of times, but has a plan every actually been made and what not? I feel like it would add more immersion to the site if we got some sort of system running.

Thoughts?

 

[Tobias Wraith]

Dude, it's a good idea.


I'm gonna say two things, implementing one would be horrible and quite exhaustive.


Two, as an adult who pays bills. I'm not coming to a website to think about money when my job and life entail that. This is an escape, not a life simulator.

 

[Mara D'Lessio Merrill]

I've got a Masters in a related field, and I've taken enough econ/IPE seminars to know that this is one kettle of fish we do not want to open. Our current balance of granularity and drama is much better.

 

[Jsc]

Danger could talk all of my characters out of their personal fortunes in just 2 posts.

Don't give her the chance Onyx. Don't do it buddy. I'm begging you. My characters will be poor forever.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

We (very) briefly tried a credits system here. It didn’t work because it didn’t mean anything.

An economy system is a gigantic, horrible undertaking this forum should not ever undertake. The work/reward payoff is so fractional, if not actually negative, that I cannot see it ever functioning.

The problem is we have [member="Danger Arceneau"] at one end of a scale who literally owns a significant portion of the galaxy’s commerce. How can we balance something against that?

I can literally think of no good reason to spend hundreds of hours creating a currency system, balancing it, updating personal wealth, enforcing it, and then realising that we have people who trillions of credits are not even worth policing.

 

[Darth Kentarch]

Actually we balance things like that with common sense, no one person controls that much of any advanced economic system. And people who want to play economics never want to play by the rules.

 

[Jsc]

[member="The Onyx"] Let's talk immersion for a moment. It's the reason you gave for wanting an 'economics' whatever anyway. And I'm not even going to suggest this thread go in the 'Site Suggestions' forum either. It's not there yet.

Still. I know Valiens can give a thousand creditable reasons why a system like this will never work but... Let's pretend for a moment that this 'immersion' you mentioned is really worth it. What kind of benefits did you have in mind Onyx? How did you envision this 'economy' benefiting the community?

 

[Darren Onyx]

I enjoyed reading these and I really understand why most people wouldn't want a system implemented. However I still believe in immersion, as I stated and as [member="Jay Scott Clark"] wanted me to farther discuss. So I shall. Now allow me to state my ideas regarding of a economic ideas.

The basic idea I had was to not have a advanced system. Everyone would simply have a base amount of starting credits and would gain or lose credits based on situations. For example: you could gain credits for completing bounties. Suddenly there is an actual reward for doing them, besides the experience of a good RP. You would lose credits in Dev Threads and what not, since it costs credits to construct vehicles, create weapons, and recruit NPCs.

Factions would have credits and would gain more upon taking over a new planet (as well as a monthly payment for maintaining territory). I was thinking something along the lines of Star Wars Battlefront 2 Galactic Conquest, where each planet was worth different credits depending on its location, exports, and imports. Why not implement that here? Then faction leaders and users would have to make tactical decisions when using the Factory, because now it costs money.

Maybe I'm not seeing how much work it would take but I think it would be more immersive. I say that word because it is. It adds another level of thinking to this game world and adds more suspense, as we no longer have unlimited amount of credits to spend and use. It actually requires us to be a bit smarter when doing things.

I personally would love to see this small idea taken into consideration. It isn't a massive economical system that requires we pay taxes and what not, it's just adding a small little side note underneath our character images to let us know, "Hey, you can spend credits on building a fleet or an army, make your tactical decision".

I would go as far as saying that I would personally map out everything, design everything, and even code it if I have to. That's how much I'd love to see it. But I do understand, again, why most may not like this idea.

 

[Solariel Eldara]

This community would need more than a system and rules. It would need a program designed to operate the mechanics of an economic system, similar to the one that Sith Lore had years ago on their website. Beyond a certain point, it's not possible without a program operating it.

 

[Jsc]

I would go as far as saying that I would personally map out everything, design everything, and even code it if I have to.

I would love to see this. But now that I think about it. Encouraging this is probably a bad idea. Meh. Good thoughts though.

 

[Yvette Dusong]

You'd need to map out several dozens, if not a few hundred, proper supply routes between planets and factions first and foremost to have a way to properly ferry goods to and from if you want to incorporate Corporations / Companies / Anybody besides bounty hunters in this form of economic system. Then you'd need someone to keep an eye on said supply routes since Pirates and Privateering will come back in full force due to tangible rewards in actually raiding said supply routes which can create a lot of drama between people. Then Danger is probably going to start an insurance firm, or several, for said supply lines plagued by Pirates and Privateers and gain an even bigger control of the economy and make it even harder for whoever is in charge to keep a proper eye on the economics.

And then, if going with the idea that Development Threads will use credits / resources, you're going to need someone to keep an eye on just that while also communicating with the Economy leader to make sure everything is in order. And if Development Threads cost credits then Faction vs Faction Raids will become a hell of a lot more important, doubly so if you absolutely need to delay a development thread for an invasion you have planned so your chances of success don't get thrown out the window. And that's another platter for the RPJ's to chew on and deal with.

I would love to see an Economy / Warfare / Trade system be implemented and tried out on Chaos, as well as watching [member="Danger Arceneau"] run a couple of ponzi schemes and other such shenanigans until she is literally in control of the money flow, but the workload required to maintain it will drive away anybody but a select few individuals while also creating a hell of a lot of drama for the first few months before people get accustomed to the system. Keeping it as simple and accessible as possible is the way Chaos will keep trucking forward.

 

[Mara D'Lessio Merrill]

[member="Yvette Dusong"]
Well said.

 

[Danger Arceneau]

[member="Yvette Dusong"]

Well said indeed.




Not to mention, I'd get waaaayyy too invested in this. Trade is my game -- The Market Place came to be because of the Southern Systems Business Bazaar minor faction I created to suit this niche.


In the end... my writing partners would riot, demanding posts from my other alts, and that is no bueno.


I like how things are roleplayed now. IC actions have IC consequences without the nickel and diming of an economics system.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

It’s not practical in a large group with such differences in scale.

There are characters here with barely 2 credits to their name and others who own star systems and vast commercial empires.

But the real issue is administrative. You would need staff, lots of them, to monitor and administer it. Otherwise, how would credit transfers work? Obviously players could transfer what they have, but how would income, taxes and production be covered?

Your offer to help is well-intentioned, Onyx, but it would take a lot of people to even start, months of constant work, and at the end…what?
Would we impose this system on all the members? That’s not fair, and who wants to micromanage a fake bank account as well as their IRL ones?

Honestly, the only way this could work is at the start of a new forum where everyone starts at an equally low level. Even then the monumental amount of work involved would make pointless.

 

[Yvette Dusong]

There are characters here with barely 2 credits to their name and others who own star systems and vast commercial empires.

There are ways to circumvent that actually, and that's through imposing an Embargo system that would require more moderation. The basic idea behind it is, in the case Credits would be tied to Development threads and said credits are tied to supply routes, and said supply routes are the lifeblood of the economy, you can give Major Factions to option of an embargo. I know they technically can happen as is, but I mean give them some way to directly affect this make-believe Economy system that we assume is in place.

Let's say that Corporations / Companies make their money by trading with planets, be they under the tutelage of a Faction or Neutral. The more planets they strike deals with, the bigger their income is going to be. If a faction chooses to Embargo a certain Corporation / Company, they will no longer have any sort of trade deals on going and will not be allowed to conduct trade on their worlds, most likely not even allowed to use their supply routes to ferry goods.

Let's take the One Sith for example, who own almost the entirety of the Inner Core. And let's say their economic adversary is [member="Danger Arceneau"]. Hypotethically speaking, the Sith's relationship with Danger goes sour and they don't want to line her pockets anymore so they issue an embargo against her which immediately hits her pockets. Now they have the entire Inner and Outer Core worlds supply routes all to themselves, so they can prop up an up and coming trader and give him full rights to trade within their Sphere of Influence, which will give him a meteoric rise on the market in more ways than one. Suddenly Danger isn't the top dog she used to be anymore and there's a new economic force to be reckoned with, one that is technically in the pockets of the One Sith. One Sith individuals themselves can still trade with Danger and the SSB, but I imagine it would come at the expense of IC disciplinary actions if it is found out.

It will take A LOT of work and moderation to make work, like I mentioned previously, but it's not that dificult to come up with a relatively tangible idea of how to make Danger lose her monopoly on the Galaxy while still being logical and realistic. Also sorry that I keep calling you out Danger, you're just the only big player I know of on the market.

 

[Danger Arceneau]

[member="Yvette Dusong"]


This is also why I subcontract smaller PC and NPC companies to do trade routes

I give contracts to the smaller start up companies to ship things for me. I use local workers to fill the jobs at ATC space sports, warehouses, shipping trade lines ( just like stewardesses in airlines).

I also created regional occupational programs for people to get training within the various aspects of ATC, browncoat, Mara tibx, pharmatech, mohc extractives, and Blastech.

This isn't even including the medical, fueling stations, and trade stations literally spanning from one edge of the verse to the next.

There is no insult when using me as an example, ATC is big. I've put over 100 dev threads and the like to making it what it is today. There is a reason why people say that danger is tied to the economy.

She brings so much job security and trade to various sectors as a neutral entity than any other company out there to all the factions she deals with.

So yes, there are ways to be a buzzing Mosquitos to ATC -- but it would take a long time before it could affect how Danger works. Subcontractors, alternate charted hyperlanes, even favors can be pulled.

Networking is her game. She will use all that she can to ensure ATC runs like a well oiled machine.

 

[Jonathon Patches]

[member="Yvette Dusong"]
This is also why I subcontract smaller PC and NPC companies to do trade routes
I give contracts to the smaller start up companies to ship things for me. I use local workers to fill the jobs at ATC space sports, warehouses, shipping trade lines ( just like stewardesses in airlines).
I also created regional occupational programs for people to get training within the various aspects of ATC, browncoat, Mara tibx, pharmatech, mohc extractives, and Blastech.
This isn't even including the medical, fueling stations, and trade stations literally spanning from one edge of the verse to the next.
There is no insult when using me as an example, ATC is big. I've put over 100 dev threads and the like to making it what it is today. There is a reason why people say that danger is tied to the economy.
She brings so much job security and trade to various sectors as a neutral entity than any other company out there to all the factions she deals with.
So yes, there are ways to be a buzzing Mosquitos to ATC -- but it would take a long time before it could affect how Danger works. Subcontractors, alternate charted hyperlanes, even favors can be pulled.
Networking is her game. She will use all that she can to ensure ATC runs like a well oiled machine.

All of the above is why I would never want an economic system. I am far too lazy and care too little to do hundreds or even a half dozen development threads. With an economy, I will now have to do "transaction" threads to show proof of receipt. When you go this route, you alienate the casual rp'ers that just want to RP, and don't care how or why they got the shirt on their back, the credits in their pocket, or the ship they fly.


While this is an interesting idea, it appeals far more to the needs of the few vs the needs of the many.

 

[Braith Achlys]

Economical systems work based on trial and error, as seen in the real world, and it is best to start out small and from the beginning (again, as in the real world). Trying to jump into an economic system with such a large amount of people so suddenly is unrealistic (in terms of implementation). While it is a neat idea, it isn't practical.

 

[Ayden Cater]

There are ways to circumvent that actually, and that's through imposing an Embargo system that would require more moderation. The basic idea behind it is, in the case Credits would be tied to Development threads and said credits are tied to supply routes, and said supply routes are the lifeblood of the economy, you can give Major Factions to option of an embargo. I know they technically can happen as is, but I mean give them some way to directly affect this make-believe Economy system that we assume is in place.

Let's say that Corporations / Companies make their money by trading with planets, be they under the tutelage of a Faction or Neutral. The more planets they strike deals with, the bigger their income is going to be. If a faction chooses to Embargo a certain Corporation / Company, they will no longer have any sort of trade deals on going and will not be allowed to conduct trade on their worlds, most likely not even allowed to use their supply routes to ferry goods.

Let's take the One Sith for example, who own almost the entirety of the Inner Core. And let's say their economic adversary is [member="Danger Arceneau"]. Hypotethically speaking, the Sith's relationship with Danger goes sour and they don't want to line her pockets anymore so they issue an embargo against her which immediately hits her pockets. Now they have the entire Inner and Outer Core worlds supply routes all to themselves, so they can prop up an up and coming trader and give him full rights to trade within their Sphere of Influence, which will give him a meteoric rise on the market in more ways than one. Suddenly Danger isn't the top dog she used to be anymore and there's a new economic force to be reckoned with, one that is technically in the pockets of the One Sith. One Sith individuals themselves can still trade with Danger and the SSB, but I imagine it would come at the expense of IC disciplinary actions if it is found out.

It will take A LOT of work and moderation to make work, like I mentioned previously, but it's not that dificult to come up with a relatively tangible idea of how to make Danger lose her monopoly on the Galaxy while still being logical and realistic. Also sorry that I keep calling you out Danger, you're just the only big player I know of on the market.

This -literally- made my eyes cross from reading it.

As someone who once advocated the idea of a credit system... No. Just no.