Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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The Problem wtih Armament Ratings

Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
First off I want to say that I'm very impressed with the all the work done so far, the new templates are exhaustive yada yada it all looks good.

My main concern is that the armament rating is a vague number with no comparative weight. For all that it's also got a very wide range. I personally am not clear on what a rating 1 Fighter looks like vs. a rating 20. Same idea with a rating 1 vs. 20 Destroyer. Now if you compare ships of a different class, it gets even worse.

A hard formula for figuring how effective one ship is against another (assuming both use rating only) would probably be relatively easy to work up but wouldn't solve all the issues something like, when dealing with a class up armament rating is x.75 for each step up.

That would uh, let me do the math here. A 20 Fighter would be 15 vs. a Corvette, 11 vs. a Frigate, 8 vs. a Cruiser, 6 vs a Destroyer, 4 vs a Flagship.

That's just an example, it's not something I'd necessarily recommend for use. Another possibility is to have it be more of a static scale (relating basically to weight of shot, if you will) and restrict it on a line. So say Fighters can have a MAX rating of 3, Corvettes a MAX rating of 6, Frigates 9, Cruisers 12, etc. That also solves the confusing status of Carriers, where they're the same size as Destroyers but should be significantly less well armed. Individual submissions could go beyond the listed max too, if they were very well done.

I could be totally off base here, but I feel that the goal with armament ratings should be to give any random ship a baseline to go off when dealing with any other random ship. Right now they don't really do that, they tell you that Cruiser X with Rating 16 is probably more powerful than Cruiser Y with Rating 10. It's also probably less powerful than Destroyer A Rating 15, but what about Destroyer B Rating 10? What about Carrier C Rating 15, or Frigate D Rating 20?

And finally I feel obligated to note that the various size classifications continue to legitimize the sci-fi problem (it's not unique to Star Wars) in thinking that a Destroyer is a big badass ship when historically they have been very small escorts (because apparently 'Battleship' is too damn mundane sounding). Obviously this is the case in canon, so you are free to ignore this particular part of the post as me shaking my fist as the moon.

I totally had this written up for the other thread.
 
I'm aware of fleeters' hesistancy regarding Armament Ratings, so I won't touch on that.

I will touch on that Destroyers - in the U.S. Navy - ARE the big bad boys. Not nearly as large as an amphib or a carrier, but they can certainly do just as much - if not more - damage output than a carrier. You've got frigates, coast guard cutters, RCB's - smaller than real world DDG's. Flight I and Flight II variants. Only cruisers are classified as larger, but standing next to one on each side of the pier - they're the same exact size. The only way to tell them apart is the slant of the DDG's mast opposed to the cruiser's straight mast.

They're small - to you and me - because of fuel efficiency and how fast we can build 'em, among other things.

From wikipedia:



Prior to World War II, destroyers were light vessels with little endurance for unattended ocean operations; typically a number of destroyers and a single destroyer tender operated together. After the war, the advent of the guided missile allowed destroyers to take on the surface combatant roles previously filled by battleships and cruisers. This resulted in larger and more powerful destroyers more capable of independent operation.
At the beginning of the 21st century, destroyers are the heaviest surface combatant ships in general use, with only three nations (the United States, Russia, and Peru) operating the heavier class cruisers and none operating battleships[3] or true battlecruisers.[4]
Just wanted to spit some Navy at you, see what I got back.
 
Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
For what it's worth, I'm actually in the Navy, and yes, in the modern world they are the main surface combatant (see especially: the Zumwalt-class, which is the size and displacement of a WW2 Heavy Cruiser).

That said as far as role goes it sorta fits. They remain primarily escorts with Anti-Air, Anti-Sub and Anti-Surface capability. That is what I imagine has big navy constantly calling every new ship a Destroyer (not that Navy naming conventions these days make any sense, what with the LCS being a whole new class, because apparently 'fast frigate' wasn't adequate for a 40-knot ship).

In contrast, the Star Destroyers of Star Wars are very much Battleships, with much more in common with an Iowa-class than an Arleigh Burke. Further the weapons technology more adequately fits in a WW2 setting than a modern one (big caliber guns being the main weapon rather than supersonic smart missiles).

And again, this is a problem not unique to Star Wars (hell Babylon V makes the same mistake), nor would I expect it to change here. Just felt like being an old man about it. This website has some excellent discussion on the matter (and on space war in general, it'll crush all your dreams).

Also an Arleigh Burke and a Tico are pretty damn different to my eye.
 

Hevana Martin

Hair-triggered Super Soldier
From what I've seen of [member="Cyrus Tregessar"] from his time in AE/TGE, you'd be hard pressed to find a better Naval number cruncher on this board [member="Tefka"].
 
[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]

If you hadn't collapsed in your latest post in the Invasion, I was going to have Olivia ram your walker's legs on either side with her tanks. If you took the hit, I'd have your walker fall ON the NPC tank. Olivia would then get out of her tank, assault the walker by herself, punch you in the nose, ask "Name, Rank, Serial Number.", and then drag your butt back to Mandalore for interrogation and possible conversion.


>_>
 
Cyrus Tregessar said:
For what it's worth, I'm actually in the Navy, and yes, in the modern world they are the main surface combatant (see especially: the Zumwalt-class, which is the size and displacement of a WW2 Heavy Cruiser).

That said as far as role goes it sorta fits. They remain primarily escorts with Anti-Air, Anti-Sub and Anti-Surface capability. That is what I imagine has big navy constantly calling every new ship a Destroyer (not that Navy naming conventions these days make any sense, what with the LCS being a whole new class, because apparently 'fast frigate' wasn't adequate for a 40-knot ship).

In contrast, the Star Destroyers of Star Wars are very much Battleships, with much more in common with an Iowa-class than an Arleigh Burke. Further the weapons technology more adequately fits in a WW2 setting than a modern one (big caliber guns being the main weapon rather than supersonic smart missiles).

And again, this is a problem not unique to Star Wars (hell Babylon V makes the same mistake), nor would I expect it to change here. Just felt like being an old man about it. This website has some excellent discussion on the matter (and on space war in general, it'll crush all your dreams).

Also an Arleigh Burke and a Tico are pretty damn different to my eye.
I think you've mentioned you were Navy before. Where are you stationed? I work over here at the Norfolk Naval station. Maybe we've crossed paths before.
 
I have mixed feelings about the ships armament feelings and factory 2.0. While the armament rating is nice, and there is an armament rating hangar balance. However there seems to be exploitable system where you can pump up other stats like maneuverability and speed, regardless of each other or what the armament rating is without consequence. And with the numbers stats I feel it will become stat crunching instead writing based role-plays. The other glaring problem is that ship tech already approved is not going to mesh into the templates. And the fleeters who have already large amounts of factory approved ships already maxed out to their specification can use this to their advantage very easily. I hate to say this, but if you really want to run this without problem, you need to nerf all preexisting ships made before factory 2.0.
 
We're not touching ships already submitted in the Factory. I'm not sure why anyone would ever want to do this. It's silly.

This isn't League of Legends where the balance of each champion is absolutely detrimental to this community. Starships are actually a very small part of the role-play environment.
 
Cyrus Tregessar said:
Also an Arleigh Burke and a Tico are pretty damn different to my eye.
Photo-USN-BurkeIIA5.jpg
ddg65_wide.jpg
USS_Shiloh_good_deck_detail_04016702.jpg
 
Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
Sunny San Diego on the best coast. I was in Norfolk (or more accurately, Newport News) for a year a while ago (back in uh, '11, I think). Can't say I'm a big fan of the east coast in general.
 
Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
OS2. Feel free to make the obligatory jokes. What about yourself? Normally if people start talking about rate they're either active or prior themselves.

This is a big off topic now, so to relate to the original question, is there currently an ongoing discussion about armament ratings? I'm willing to help work something out if it comes to that.
 
We're taking suggestions, and nothings stopping people from getting together to crowdsource ideas. I welcome it, actually. A wonderfully organized presentation on how things could work better for both the fleeter crowd and the mainstream crowd, provided in the form of a suggestion thread here on the board, that doesn't pander but rather bases it's thought and concept on analysis and fact? With people working together? And finding a middle ground based on their ideas, their thoughts, in a presentation that mostly represents all aspects of the issue, rather than just the ones you feel deeply about?

And best of all, it's not overly complicated and muddied, but is rather slick, streamlined, and to the point? A presentation that isn't PM'd to me, but patiently waits in the suggestion forum - as preferred - with a small mention to Staff members to please come and look at it?

You guys drool about starships, what I just mentioned is what I drool about.

I was a CTM2 when I honorably separated after 4 years, I now do contract work for big navy out here in Norfolk.
 
[member="Tefka"]

A) League of Legends reference. . . .nice!

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]

If you have suggestions I wouldn't mind working on them with you. I myself have been trying to think of the best way to incorporate as many people's concerns as possible for a potential reference if people need one in the end. Was thinking as Silara pointed out in her thread here to rate weaponry with the rating scores, but with the added addition of taking the length of ships into account to balance out all classes, and referencing the amounts ships of factory past had when tallying them up. I can provide a much more detailed description and the basic idea I have if you want to pan it out in PM. I'd work more here now, but I have another course in 10 minutes I am running out to now.
 
Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
So I'm about to throw a ship in for submission, and I realized that I'm having the same trouble with speed and maneuverability ratings as I am armament ratings.

What might be a simple/quick temporary fix is to in each template give a 'baseline' or 'average.' As it stands I'm not sure if my slower-than-average-but-more-manuverable-corvette is actually meeting those criteria with the numbers I've put.

Related to what I mentioned earlier, having Armament Rating be a fixed number like Speed and Maneuverability are would also be a good idea, i think.

Edit: New template is great overall, though.
 

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