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Light saber duels in the movies the good and bad.

Tellos

Active Member
[Note: this is just meant to discuss something on my mind not bash the movies or claim ones better or whatever. Just something I felt interested in. So lets stay calm I am not saying nobody can like the battles or not. I am merely going over my reasoning.
Ok so I’ve heard so often how people like or dislike various duels in the films. Some argue about chorography etc. Now being planned out is fine obviously you have to plan out somewhat to keep actors from being harmed otherwise insurance and lawsuits ensue. So this is my personal issue with the prequels duels. Now keep in mind mostly I like them for showing other forms of dueling that’s great.

My issue is especially in 3 where you got TOO planned, what I mean is the strikes become too obviously meant to be countered or not even aimed AT the other guy but his weapon. This is a tough balance but you have to try to make it or you see less a fight and see it more as a planned out event which breaks the tension in a scene. Also blow up emersion in the flow of the story. I go to the famously gifed scene where Anakin and obi won twirl their sabers around both in defense against nothing. Or times where against darth maul the two seemed to strike intentionally over their heads widely or intentionally go after a blade not the target. [again I understand they have to not actually harm each other but plenty of shows and movies do this just fine.] So to me my issue is that they went too far in one direction. Namely polished it just a little too much. What do you think?
 
The Reaper of Won Shasot
I agree. I feel that you can make duels flashy and all that, but still realistic. Strike placement, foot work, etc all play into that. Sometimes when you try to make it too flashy, you get exactly what you're talking about.
 
I think it works in the sense of training. When you think about it the fight with Darth Maul made sense since Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Maul were all trained fighters. Yeah, it's basically choreographed, but it's understandable since they've all been trained to fight that way. In terms of the original sequel obviously they didn't have much in terms of fighting choreography but since Obi-Wan was old and Vader hadn't fought anyone like him in a while it made sense they'd be careful when fighting; even if Obi basically made it a sacrificing move. Same with Vader vs Luke since he didn't want to kill him but show him how stronger the dark side was, then with the fight in Return of the Jedi both were skilled enough to be matched but clearly Luke was getting the upper hand due to his emotions. Then with Force Awakens the fighting is a little more down and dirty which, again, makes sense when you realize only Kylo Ren has had any training. Finn was doing his best and Rey just had to let the Force help guide her.

That's my explanation at least lol
 

Tellos

Active Member
[member="ScarletSilver"] normally I'd agree but again what we knwo especially of say Obi wons later seresou style is it's about concerving energy not twirlign agaisnt LITERILTY nothing. It's not that they danced about it's that they danced about SO much that they broke the 4th wall in a bad way. It became TOO obviously a dance. So it bled the intensity out.
 

Tellos

Active Member
As i said suppose it all depends on your veiw. I myself feel if it jsut had not been QUITE so super well chorographed it'd have helped. There was jsut a tad much of the 4th wall breaking for me.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
I could never figure out how a lightsaber was supposed to be the perfect weapon for a wizard?

Was it supposed to be:
  • Crusaders smashing broadswords
  • Kung Fu clash of exotic Daos
  • Pirate's cutlass and swashbuckling
  • Angelic sword of fire defending Eden
  • Fencing estoc that goes prick, prick, prick

The shear physics of a lightsaber are ridiculous when applied to metal weapon styles of today. And just how does one use the Force and fence too? Wouldn't a wand or staff be better for casting spells?

In the end, I just figured it's all baloney sandwich. Swordfighting in Star Wars is dumb. :(
 
Thief of Fizzy Lifting Drinks
I really liked the duels in the original trilogy above all. I mean, the prequel trilogy had flashy fights and all, but the spiritualistic resemblance to kendo in the originals, when the lightsaber wasn't a weapon so much as it was a way to express oneself and a method of showing how the characters felt, was a lot more meaningful to me. I liked how heavy the strikes were and how the slow-paced combat evolved into a faster paced style without being over-the-top.
 
Personally, I think the duels or fights tend to be a bit heavily designed for cinema entertainment. If they were done as if it was proper sword play then you wouldn't have the turning of your back against the enemy etc.

In addition, the vast majority of these fights seem to always "appear" to abandon the use of the force rather than using it to give them an advantage.

The Pre Vizsla fights i would say tend to be the most "realistic" for example.
 
Tellos said:
normally I'd agree but again what we knwo especially of say Obi wons later seresou style is it's about concerving energy not twirlign agaisnt LITERILTY nothing. It's not that they danced about it's that they danced about SO much that they broke the 4th wall in a bad way. It became TOO obviously a dance. So it bled the intensity out

I agree with your latter points about it is being too obviously a dance. It removes a lot of interest when the players are clearly not trying to kill one another. I thought that The Force Awakens actually killed it when it came to actually looking hostile. Some flawed bits but... overall way better. Kind of like a great in between of the realism of the OT and the absurd flash of the PT.

BUT!!

Keep in mind that the dude behind the choreography has openly said he never designed choreography with forms in mind. Note, forms are a natural consideration ins combat, but lightsaber combat was not designed in the movies with forms in mind. Certain characters did not have form tendencies built into choreography in a clearly defined manner. Therefore, while books and EU might push the idea of Obi-wan being a seresu fighter, the movies were never designed with that in mind. Therefore, I would actually say the non-movie materials are the ones in error there because they try and ascribe something to obi-wan that is not evident from the movies.
 

Tellos

Active Member
[member="Selena Halcyon"] you'd be right if in Episode 3 Knobi was almsot exclusivly in the Form III motions in that battle.

I point to this as an example.

tumblr_ltkp4dpeVB1r03eggo1_500.gif



Thre is neither side attackking but both are defending and in battle this is very unlikely. From seasoned vets of a war I'd argue almost impossible. This is that point where it breaks the 4th wall.
 
Dude, straight up. At no point was I pointing out a defense for what happened. I am well recorded in my hatred for prequel combat, for the reasons like the gif above.

My point about Obi-Wan and the forms is that, while the forms are realistic from an actual combat standpoint, no choreography was designed around forms. Therefore, as arguments go it does not make sense to bring up the forms because they are not relevant to the discussion simply because they are not actually in the movie. You can ascribe certain things you see to forms, but nothing in the movies is properly a form being put on screen. I cannot for the life of me find the Nick Gillard quote that I am looking for but I know it is there, but essentially he concedes that there are no forms insofar as the movies represent them. Forms are purely a construct of comics, games, and books. The choreography is simply choreography, which is why it is so bad in some ways. It is not actual combat trying to be brought to life.

So my point on that is all about argumentation, and how complaining about Obi-wan not using Seresu is silly. Because of course he was not using Seresu. Nick Gillard had no idea what Seresu is, therefore he would not design choreography with that in mind.

Get what I am saying?
 

Tellos

Active Member
[member="Selena Halcyon"] Oh I know you were not just was ilistrating my point to those who may not have goton it. No worries.
 

Butch Mahan

Si vis pacem, para bellum
I feel like the Original Fights were realistic as they were based on techniques and they happened in a time where they literally couldn't make it flashy. I like them, but they could have been more exciting, not flashy, if they had better technology.

Prequels were flashy but enjoyable to watch, you gotta admit, sometimes they were really "in the moment", despite the popular census that "Everything in the Prequel sucks" it was entertaining.

Despite the realism of the one in The Force Awakens, it was just to raw. For instance, if it required the force to use these weapons, (well at least) why didn't Fin get his blocked knocked off the second he stepped up to the challenge. Why did Rey "Kind've" beat him or at least tie the match, when Kylo had actual training and she did not. She may have a load of force within her or whatever, but Anakin, who was suppose to be the person with the largest load of force to ever be in someone, got his ass kicked by Count Dooku, who had more training then Kylo, but the comparison is the same. The fight was just wicky wack back and forth, didn't feel like a sword fight between knights, or samurai, or anyone of skill, more like pre-teens fighting with sticks.

But my favorite lightsaber fight scene would have to be the one at the end of Rogue One. If ya know what i mean.
 
Butch Mahan said:
Despite the realism of the one in The Force Awakens, it was just to raw. For instance, if it required the force to use these weapons, (well at least) why didn't Fin get his blocked knocked off the second he stepped up to the challenge. Why did Rey "Kind've" beat him or at least tie the match, when Kylo had actual training and she did not. She may have a load of force within her or whatever, but Anakin, who was suppose to be the person with the largest load of force to ever be in someone, got his ass kicked by Count Dooku, who had more training then Kylo, but the comparison is the same. The fight was just wicky wack back and forth, didn't feel like a sword fight between knights, or samurai, or anyone of skill, more like pre-teens fighting with sticks.

Out of curiosity why are you so baffled that Kylo, who is visibly injured and hampered by that injury, got beaten by inexperienced fighters. He clearly did not have the physical ability to bring what he normally would to a fight because of his injury. It was the equalizer and the movie does a perfectly good job of demonstrating that.[member="Butch Mahan"]
 
[member="Selena Halcyon"] the movie also did a very important task of showing how powerful the bowcaster was. we saw stormtroopers being knocked off their feet from a fair distance and explosions from it. So Kylo taking one shot to the chest even from a greater range and standing better able to move. He had to be hurting.
 
Exactly! It baffles my mind how people can complain about Kylo losing. Yes, he is clearly better trained. But even injured he made quick work of Finn. I'd say that he probably would have done the same to Rey if he had fought her first. However, the injury took more of a tole over time as well. You can't fight through that kind of pain forever. The injury is so significant.
 
Well when it comes to Rey, I have a theory for her skill (and not just reincarnated Obi, Palpatine, Anakin) but yeah he likely would have beaten her if they went first. Finn fighting though was part of his growth and he did have the training. Assuming all stormtroopers get the same basic and then go onto whatever position they are given. He would have had the melee training likely to use the saber as if I recall it was only in the legends EU where you had to be able to use the force to effectively use a lightsaber.
 
I think the need for the force in using a lightsaber is overblown (there was a time when it was necessary because a lightsaber was supposed to be heavy. I know it is opposite of how it later was understood, but there was a time when lightsabers were supposedly heavy because of the amount of energy). But Finn certainly would have some martial training, maybe not the best but he would know something of how to fight.

I think Rey is just a savant. She is just naturally good at using the force intuitively. I imagine she will still struggle when training, but in terms of understanding the basics of the force she just gets it.
 

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