Ground Combat Discussion

[Veino Garn]

Right, so we wanted more NPC military action influence on invasions. Now we have them courtesy of the One Sith and Galactic Republic.
But also problems. Namely no limit on the number of npcs that can get summoned for the slaughter. On Kashyyyk, we're pulling tens of thousands out of thin air.

Should there be a limit? How should it be implemented?

Second, people are complaining that they feel NPCs are overshadowing the PCs now so that it feels like a war game. While personally, since Kiyron is useless in PVP, I'm quite happy about that, and I'm also a little pleased that we have gained our revenge on duels of magic overwhelming entire planets when armies would clash in the millions in the background.

How can we regain the balance in that situation?

Discuss in a five paragraph essay with at least three sources.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Veino Garn"]
The simple answer is that, like fleeting, there should be a defacto ‘cost’ for NPCs. Not metres like with ships, but based on the number of troops, multiplied by a number representing their rarity (1 for common, 2 for uncommon etc) and have vehicles/artillery be multiplied by 10.

That would stop people pulling them out of mid air, and just like fleeting would mean everyone needs NPC unit subs so everyone knows what they’re facing.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

I approve of the greater significance of NPC mooks. It brings back memories of Roche. Now someone just needs to write a Kursk-style tank battle...



Agree on the cost idea, [member="Valiens Nantaris"]. Common conscripts are easily available, a unit of HRDs would be more exclusive.

 

[Veino Garn]

Yeah, the point value does seem to be the simplest and most effective compared to any alternative I might think of. Then it also requires more strategic thinking to try to balance out advantages any other unit might have.

Would it easier to create new categories for point values or stick with what's in the NPC unit creation template at common, uncommon, rare, and unique? Those would be easy enough to assign point values of 1-4, and then have vehicle or Vongbeast units have the same designation but with values from 10-40. Would it be per individual though or per squad or something?

What would be a reasonable cap limit for an invasion, do you think?

 

[Reverance]

So...as some of you all have noticed, I'm pretty aggressive and overall pretty irritating when it comes to ground warfare and NPC's. I transferred to this site from one that had a very very very regulated system in terms of what you could and could not have. For your viewing pleasure, behold:

Spoiler

Restrictions

Troops/Technology from/inspired by sources other than Star Wars canon are disallowed.
All Ysalamiri which people currently claim to have are now scaled back to a single ysalamir. This allows non-Force users to maintain some protection, while scaling back some outrageous claims. In future, any claims of ysalamir should be able to be backed up by posts on Myrkr showing their removal from trees, how they're kept alive, and their removal from the planet - bearing in mind that very few knew how to do that. Carrying a ysalamir 24/7 is unrealistic also - if you do carry one, it will require a nutrient frame, and constant replenishment of the food in it.
Rifting is not allowed, so there is no need for Ysalamir shielding to prevent entry.
As with fleets, any ground troops considered to be unique 'super-weapons' are out of bounds.
Fleets are assumed to carry sufficient landing craft to land their forces.
Planetary shields are not allowed.

Allowed Forces

10 - Supreme class vehicles-150m+
300 - Heavy class vehicles-15m+
350 - Medium class vehicles-10-15m
750 - Light class veheicles-0-10m
35 NPC Generals
5 up to and including master-equivalent(less powerful than PC).
30 Force Sensitive to Padawan level.
500 - Commando Troops
Commando Troops have no capability of using the Force
Commando Troops are highly specialized troops, and may possess advanced knowledge of skills like espionage, explosives and slicing. These are just examples. Commandos are likely to have superior equipment to other troops.
5000 - Elite Troops
Have no capability of using the force.
Elite Troops are more highly trained than Standard Troops.
50000 - Standard Troops
Have no capability of using the force.
Standard Troops are the core of any army, be they Stormtroopers, Battle Droids, or standard Wookiee Infantry.

The above definitions are not definitive, nor is it possible to cover every potential case. We ask you to use common sense and good judgement when defining your forces.

The troops under your command should make sense - lightsaber-wielding Wookiees fighting for the Empire would be an extreme example of troops not making sense.

Any vehicle may be substituted using the following guides:
10 Heavy = 1 Supreme
5 Medium = 1 Heavy.
10 Light = 1 Medium.

Note: You cannot trade up for more Supreme-class vehicles.

Any troops may be substituted using the following guides:
10 Elites = 1 Commando Troop member.
10 Troops = 1 Elite Troop member.

NEW: Troops may be exchanged for vehicles using the following guide:
10 standard troops = 1 light vehicle

Any troops may be substituted using the following guides:
10 Elites = 1 Commando Troop member.
10 Troops = 1 Elite Troop member.
1 NPC General = 10 Commando Troops. (Up to a maximum of 25 NPC Generals can be traded down for additional troops.)

Note: You cannot trade up for more NPC Generals.

Now, I am by no means advocating a system like this. I hope to never have to deal with this level of complexity again. However, it's often easier to edit something then it is to create.

-There are things that can be gleaned from this. Like...the three prong sort of classification where something is either a standard, elite, or commando variant of a troop. From there, you can build your base allowance. To avoid bringing a number classification into the fray. For instance, you are a allowed 10,000 troops. A standard is worth one, an elite is worth 10, and a commando is worth 100. So you can have 100 commandos, 1,000 elites, 10,000 standards, or some combination of the three.

-Planetary versus attacking amounts: I am a firm believer that a single writer defending a planet should have more forces than a single writer that is attacking. Stems from the fact that it takes resources and craft to transport ground fleets. Along with this, it forces an actual larger force to take a planet through ground tactics, which is good for story.

-Consideration for military leadership: A member of leadership should, by default, have more forces that they can control then say a lowly platoon sergeant. Comparison between subaltern and warmaster, for instance.

I have more, I just can't seem to place it. Overall, I wouldn't focus on going through and classifying each type of thing as "well, that's a category 1...and yeah, that's a category 4." That's time costly and unnecessarily complicated. Why quantify when you can qualify? Amirite?

edit: Another idea is to not have it be per person but more per faction (i dunno how we could quantify that though). That way, the faction can disperse the NPC responsibility as it sees fit, instead of putting that on the shoulders of the PC's who may not be so inclined as to NPC duty.

 

[Garza]

[member="Reverance"], I like your idea. and I believe we should implement a system somehow. (I started to read the list you provided, but stopped half way through as it was confusing me.) and I agree, it needs to be more simpler. So really we just need to come up with a system much like you said of rounded numbers (1, 10, 100, 1,000, Etc) to get a system going.

Do we want to use this thread as a way to get our ideas down so we can implement this type of NPC usage, or use a different thread?

As always, everyone has a voice, so we need to think critically about everything that comes our way. I would love to be able to do a variation of fleeting, but for ground battles. I want to work on this.

 

[Veino Garn]

Using this as a place to get ideas down would work well. It's what it was meant for.

 

[Beowoof]

[member="Veino Garn"]

Quoting myself in a post that was well-responded to...

NPC armies should be allotted just like naval fleets. That's the balance you need. If you have 10 Jedi Masters and 10 commanding officers, and the faction is allotted 10,000 troops... each PC character will have 500 NPC troops at their disposal. They lead these troops, and then when their platoons clash with an enemy PC's platoon, that is when NPC forces are coordinated and the PC players can RP either a duel or infantry maneuvers, depending on the engaging players' preferences. This way, there are limits, more balance between RP and warfare, and less confusion overall.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Reverance"]
Would you be willing to help me come up with a system for here?

 

[Reverance]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

Sure

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Reverance"]
After the event I think.

 

[Reverance]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

You read my mind.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"]

Did someone say tank battle?

Anyway on the topic of ground forces, on the simplest level I think a system of Green/Recruit, Regular, and Elite sets things apart nicely. Possibly a 'Veteran' level in between Regular and Elite.

So you're talking Planetary Militia vs. Imperial Army vs. Stormtroopers vs. Storm Commandos. Or ISIS Militants to Iraqi Security Forces to US Marines to Navy SEALS, to put things into perspective.

At any rate time and my own bizarre sense of priorities permitting, I would also be willing to help develop something after the event.

 

[Gir Quee]

I too am willing to help out this.

I think the Green, Regular, and Elite system works well for infantry, though I'm not sure about its use for more complicated things (Sithspawn, Beskar super-tanks, Republic doom walkers, etc).

For something like that, something like a meter-limit system we use for fleeting might be more appropiate, perhaps with some modifiers depending on how simple or complicated/awesome it may be.