Fixing an Issue or Two

[Onrai]

So I've noticed an issue with the factory as it currently stands. There's no way to request modifications to submissions that have already been posted. If you made a single mistake or wanted to alter anything, as it stands, you are currently mandated to pretty much repaste your submission, which bloats the 'approved' section of every part of the factory. I wanted to propose a simple solution that would effectively fix the problem.

Unlock all approved submissions and allow the people who submitted them to modify them as needed.
Allow people to request for their subs to be archived.

Now, the immediate problems I see people bringing up are twofold.

1: Can't people just edit submissions during an invasion or skirmish and make their subs overpowered?
2: What's to stop someone from modifying an older submission and making it extremely overpowered?

My response:

1: If the opponent to the person using said ship believes there's an issue with the sub, they can always report it and an admin/RPJ/FJ can look over it. Given they can review the edit history of a post, they would be able to see if someone tried to pull that sort of thing and could deal with it appropriately.
2: Similarly to 1 - if a submission appears to be overpowered, it can be reported and an RPJ/admin or FJ can look over it, dealing with it if need be.

This will allow the growth of the factory approved list to be slowed as people won't need to resubmit subs for trivial changes. It also prevents people from needing to resubmit subs for updates to 5.0 status. Lastly, it gives the RPJs/admins/FJs the ability to still cover the basic functions of the factory: dealing with reports of overpowered technology, approving new submissions, and archiving subs that people want to be archived.

 

[Errreembuhr]

I'm not an FJ, so perhaps there are aspects to it that I'm unaware of, but I'm not sure that a 'bloated' approved section is really a problem. If it's an issue with finding approved submissions there's a search bar for that.

That said, I feel like this could be easily abused on a regular basis. Your example gives that somebody can make their tech OP on a whim in the middle of a battle, but on the flipside, somebody could say edit their tech to make it resistant to things it would otherwise be weak to. Things that are critical to the judging process as is when a submission is under review. This is basically saying that you could submit something acceptable for judges to approve and then later go back and alter it, in a way that would potentially not have been approved, without any judge input whatsoever.

Modifications are definitely something that needs to be looked at, I'm not denying that, but imo it would be better to bring back the old method of requesting edits to approved/locked subs than leaving it open for editing at a whim and waiting for somebody to catch it whose job isn't to do so.

 

[Onrai]

Certainly, they could. And if an RPer has an issue with the sub, they can then report it and an FJ/RPJ/admin can look at the sub, see the illicit modification has been made, and either archive the sub, bring it out to the factory so it can be fixed, or otherwise reprimand the person who did this. Certainly you raise a valid point that such an edit could be made - but remember, per the current factory, everything is approved until you are told it isn't approved or need to be changed. Even subs that haven't currently been put in the approved pile can be used assuming the FJ hasn't requested something be changed on them or archived them. It's up to the RPer who feels the sub has been illicitly modified in a way that violates the rules to report the sub and start the review process.

Going back to the submission modification thread is just asking for trouble. As someone who regularly used it, I sometimes waited weeks for an FJ or RPJ to modify the sub. I still have a backlog of submissions that never got modified because the thread was archived. Other people will have exactly the same thing happen to them - whereas unlocking the factory prevents such a burden from ever being placed on the FJs/RPJs/admins again.

 

[Errreembuhr]

You're not wrong about submissions being available for use immediately upon posting. That said, once something is approved in the current factory, that means it's been looked over by an FJ, determined to not be OP or abusable, and passed on for further continued use. Anything after that requires further scrutiny by an FJ in order to ensure that, with its new additions, it remains balanced. It shouldn't have to be the responsibility of the roleplayer engaged with another to look over the balance of a submission, otherwise why even have Factory Judges?

The submission modification thread wasn't perfect, but it's better in my opinion than leaving things open for abuse and getting to it after the fact.

 

[Malok]

[member="Vanessa Vantai"]

As our Codex cousin was so kind to point out, a bloated Approved section is not a concern of the Factory. Currently, the site has every thread written since opening either archived or in the appropriate forum - nothing is deleted and there is no concern of bloated areas to the best of my knowledge.

While I admire the spirit of this suggestion, the reality is that it would require factory staff to police the totality of the approved segments of the factory. Additionally, it will create unnecessary work for staff and the player base as a whole, as approved submissions would have to be examined during every PvP encounter that matters. Imagine what would happen during the next invasion season when every submission is put under a microscope?

Simply put - this would create more work for the community, so I don't see it being implemented. Right now, all that is required is a submitter to repost their own submission with any changes. That is infinitely easier on the community.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Why not just get the new version approved and see about getting the previous one archived?

 

[Onrai]

A philosophical question, if I may: does the balance of a submission matter if it is never used? Whether a submission is balanced or not ultimately matters only if the submission is used in some form or fashion in which it provides an impossible-to-respond-to benefit or detriment to one side or the other in RP. It should be the responsibility of any roleplayer on the site to look over and research the weapons, vehicles, fighters, technology, and ships being used against them, so that they may know the strengths and weaknesses of such subs.

Why would this suggestion, if implemented, "require factory staff to police the totality of the approved segments of the factory"? There's no reason for the factory staff to preemptively examine all submissions in the factory for user malpractice when 90% of those submissions are not actively having any sort of effect on any current PvP conflict, nor is there a reason for the staff to look over every submission in a PvP conflict. Only if a specific submission is reported would there be any reason for factory staff to get involved. Again, if a member of a faction/battle/etc believes that a submission being used by the other side is overpowered or violates the rules, it's their prerogative to report the sub and have a member of staff examine it. Again, there is no reason for staff to be forced to preemptively examine every single submission for every single PvP conflict - only if a sub is reported should action be taken.

I mean, that would be about 20-25 submissions posted in quick succession, and 20-25 getting archived. I don't think factory staff would like that. >_>

 

[Malok]

[member="Vanessa Vantai"]

does the balance of a submission matter if it is never used?

Yes.

For the remainder of your points, again:

Simply put - this would create more work for the community, so I don't see it being implemented. Right now, all that is required is a submitter to repost their own submission with any changes. That is infinitely easier on the community.

 

[Captain Jordan]

It should be the responsibility of any roleplayer on the site to look over and research the weapons, vehicles, fighters, technology, and ships being used against them, so that they may know the strengths and weaknesses of such subs.

In theory, sure. In practice, that's a great way to overwhelm players and induce aversion to conflict-oriented RP like PVP or Fleeting, where items matter in that way to the outcome.

I'd prefer to trust that items in the Factory have largely been balanced and meet with Chaos' specifications through FJ approval, rather than requiring me to apply my own standards (which are surely different). And then it creates the dilemma for me as to how to respond, do I ignore the problem and try to work around it ICly, or do I be the jerk who brings every tiny problem to the RPJs and ruin my chances to RP with the person using the tech?

 

[Onrai]

Yes.

How? If such a submission is never used and never has the slightest impact on any IC RP, it has no effect on anything whatsoever. Its relevance to this site's purpose - of the creation of things to enhance the roleplaying experience - is nonexistent.

As for your latter point - so what? If people want to go through the trouble of modifying their old submissions instead of copy/pasting a slightly different version of the sub to the factory for approval, that's their choice. Why deny them the opportunity to do such and prevent factory judges like yourself from becoming inundated with a horde of reposts that'll likely take days or potentially weeks for you to finish approving? "You" in this case referring to the factory staff as a whole, of course, and not you specifically.

With regards to your point, Jordan - are you implying that it's 'overwhelming' and 'inductive of aversion to conflict-oriented RP' to research the equipment and resources your enemy is utilizing in such a scenario? Such is practically mandatory for any fleet or ground battle, and exceedingly beneficial to one-on-one fights(as the Mandalorians have showcased in the past, particularly with their Forcebreaker grenades). Truthfully, if someone isn't willing to do the research, they shouldn't be surprised if a conflict ends up going south for them because they didn't know about something the enemy had.

Your own standards are no different from an FJ's standards. Does the submission abide by Chaos rules? Does it follow the correct template? Is it not directly cloned from another major sci-fi universe? Does it not abuse restricted materials? Is it not banned? Does it fall in line with Legends and nu-canon? If the answer to all these questions is 'yes,' then you shouldn't have anything to worry about relating to the sub. As for how to respond - talk to the person using the sub and ask for clarification regarding the aspects of it you believe are overpowered. If you can't come to an agreement, then it's certainly fair to report the sub and escalate.

 

[Captain Jordan]

With regards to your point, Jordan - are you implying that it's 'overwhelming' and 'inductive of aversion to conflict-oriented RP' to research the equipment and resources your enemy is utilizing in such a scenario?

I'm saying that placing the onus on the writer on the receiving end of such tech to evaluate that it meets Chaos standards is going to be, yes. As it stands, with all submissions being approved (and then locked) by FJs, I can rest assured that even if someone uses tech I don't personally agree with, it meets Chaos' standards and I need to find a way to work with it. If I was also charged with seeking out discrepancies and determining if the tech being used against me was meeting Chaos' standards, I don't know if I could be unbiased in making that determination. Asking writers to do that consistently in the heat of the moment, when such tech is being used against them in battle, I can't see that leading to a better scenario than what we have currently.

 

[LT-137]

Honestly? This entire idea is pointless. Kaine's counterproposal is a lot better, but unlikely to happen as it's already available for us to follow through with; we just have to put in the leg work to make sure the proper submission is archived, etc.

You'd probably have better results suggesting a fixed restricted material list, rarher than making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Delsin Shaw]

[member="Kaine Australis"], [member="Khonsu Amon"], [member="Captain Jordan"], [member="Vanessa Vantai"], [member="Darth Metus"],

Why not just get the new version approved and see about getting the previous one archived?

This right here is the ideal situation. Hell, if you wanted you could remake the item and have "Special gun MKII" and "Special Armor MKVII" The older submissions can then be archived per your request if you come to one of the Factory judges and just say. "Hey, I have these older submissions that I updated, so can you archive the older ones so people don't get confused about which one I am using."

OR

You can link the older submission as a resource into the newer version of it, and mention in the sub itself that the older one would need to be archived. It literally would take less than 30 seconds to archive the older one once the newer one is "completely approved"

I would rather spend an extra minute or two archiving older submissions, than having to go over a factory sub that could have prevented a Report or two.