Canon company subsidiaries

[Jorus Merrill]

Existing Rule:
2. Your Canon Company may not own other Canon Companies as subsidiaries unless they are directly referenced in the Wookieepedia as being owned by that Canon Company and each Canon Company Subsidiary must have another character not owned by you labeled as it's CEO/Director and must have their own Company submission.

Proposed Rule:
2. Your Canon Company may not own other Canon Companies as subsidiaries unless they are directly referenced in the Wookieepedia as similarly-named subsidiaries of that Canon Company. Such subsidiaries do not require their own company submissions, but must be named and hyperlinked in your Canon Company submission.

Rationale: Far as I can tell, this rule exists because of a unique set of circumstances a couple of years ago. It's nothing but an inconvenience now. Many large companies in canon did all their business through multiple subsidiaries, and many of them are in use here on Chaos. Here's an example situation.

Sue has been writing Kuat Drive Yards for two years and the company is at Tier V. Sue loves making Kuati ships. Bob, Jim, and Sally do not like Sue. Under the current rules, they realize they can submit Kuat Vehicles, Kuat Leisure, and Kuat Systems Engineering - all wholly owned by KDY in canon and in what Sue's been writing. They set themselves up as the new KDY. Under the current rules, Sue can't do anything except enlist her friends Joe, Bill, and Lucy to submit and run those subsidiaries, unless Bob, Jim, and Sally get to them first. Under the current rules, Sue's KDY has zero claim on any use of Kuat Leisure, KSE, and so forth and so on.

(I've been asked more than once to be Lucy. This stuff isn't hypothetical.)

Under the proposed amendment, Sue would be able to include integral, similarly-named subsidiaries in her KDY submission. Bob, Jim, and Sally would be free to submit other canon KDY subsidiaries with their own identity/culture/aesthetic, like Rothana or Ubrikkian.

Perfect solution? No. Better than what we've got? Probably, yeah. Sure as heck simpler.

[member="Jamie Pyne"] - You've done a lot of company stuff, and I know you're all about streamlining. Thoughts?

 

[Zef Halo]

[member="Jorus Merrill"]

I'd love for this to happen. As a canon holding company owner, I fully understand the Sue, Sally and etc example.

 

[Damian Starchaser]

[member="Jorus Merrill"] [member="Jamie Pyne"]

The problem with the rule was originally it was just "Your Canon Company may not own other Canon Companies as subsidiaries unless they are directly referenced in the Wookieepedia as being owned by that Canon Company."

And then some things happened and some canon companies wanted to own others and there was an issue that happened and a ruling made and it was ruled you can own other canon companies not related to your own as a subsidiary if you had someone else as the OOC owner of the article. So Canon Company X wants to buy out Canon company Y and they get a player to take company Y and sub it as a subsidiary. That's what happened. The problem is after the ruling they just sort of tacked the part about other canon companies as subsidiaries requiring other writers onto the end of the preexisting one without thinking about how it read afterwards.

There are examples of it being enforced the way you're suggesting already. If you really need to I can do some digging.

 

[Itash Mecetti]

I always found it very strange that someone writing their canon company for some reason cannot RP the subsidiaries that are canonically attached to it. Chaos canon companies don't have this limitation whatsoever, so why should canon companies have it?

I am for this change for sure.

 

[Jamie Pyne]

[member="Jorus Merrill"] | [member="Damian Starchaser"]​

What if we abolished canon company claims altogether?​

​

​

There are several issues with this proposal:

1. This seems to give canon company owners a free handout to automatically and immediately claim all canon subsidiaries upon reaching Tier 3. Some companies have a large array of subsidiaries.
2. There may currently be subsidiaries owned by other writers. How do you propose to handle that situation?
3. We currently limit canon items to 5 per writer to prevent hording. Why should this not be moderated for companies as well?

 

[Jorus Merrill]

[member="Jamie Pyne"]
1. Under the wording I'm proposing, we're talking about a reasonable number of integral, similarly-named subsidiaries per company. For example, Kuat has three or four, CEC has one, etc. The wording I'm proposing excludes the longer lists of subsidiaries you're talking about, in almost all cases.

2. I've checked the canon company list and no such examples exist. The closest thing would be Sienar/Jaemus, which I think is a new-canon evolution of a subsidiary of a subsidiary of Legends Santhe - and nowhere listed as a subsidiary, far as I can see. Santhe's creator consented to that at the time anyway. The proposed wording wouldn't change anything with that specific situation.

3. I've only seen one example that would take the total company/subsidiary number above five. Would adding a maximum number for these claims work for you? For example:

2. Your Canon Company may not own other Canon Companies as subsidiaries unless they are directly referenced in the Wookieepedia as similarly-named subsidiaries of that Canon Company. Such subsidiaries do not require their own company submissions, but must be named and hyperlinked in your Canon Company submission. Your Canon Company may hold a maximum of three such subsidiaries.

Would you be more comfortable with something like that?

 

[Damian Starchaser]

[member="Jamie Pyne"]

I'm just really going to answer one point because [member="Jorus Merrill"] covered most of it anyways and frankly in the one point I think the rest are covered.



"We currently limit canon items to 5 per writer to prevent hording. Why should this not be moderated for companies as well?"

Because a company and subsidiaries are the same entity. It's like giving someone yoda's lightsaber but saying the crystal is a separate entity from it.

Look there are exceptions to this I'm sure, one of them being our Kuat example we keep using, but in the vast majority of cases the subsidiaries of the big companies in Star Wars are just branches. They aren't separate entities they are just specialized to make different things. To keep with Kuat; Kuat Drive Yards Makes Large Warships. Their subsidiary Kuat Leisure makes pleasure craft, Kuat Systems Engineering makes small fighter styled ships. You take away one you're crippling Kuat's ability to operate as it was meant to, like taking a crystal out of a lightsaber.

It doesn't harm anything to let canon corporations sub their subsidiaries as much as non canon corporations are allowed to. And if they follow the rules or do RPs for them does it really matter?

 

[Itash Mecetti]

[member="Jamie Pyne"] | [member="Damian Starchaser"] | [member="Jorus Merrill"]

Right now Chaos Canon companies can easily submit subsidiaries at T3.

There are virtually no limitations to this besides 'be reasonable at your tier level'.

Canon companies need to basically hire an army of writers to RP out their subsidiaries, if they have a lot of them canonically. They need to maintain activity to keep the company that they are building up. They can't pick up a different company without losing the one they already have.

It used to be that Canon companies could start off at any tier they wanted to, as long as they did a dev thread. There was a distinct advantage (other than being able to write an iconic SW company) to writing a canon company.

...that advantage was taken away, but for some reason every disadvantage was kept in.

On the other hand Chaos Canon companies have none of these disadvantages and almost every advantage.

I don't see a reason why Canon Companies are put at this much of a disadvantage, when the only difference right now is that one is grounded in Star Wars canon and one isn't?

 

[Jamie Pyne]

[member="Jorus Merrill"]

[member="Jamie Pyne"]
1. Under the wording I'm proposing, we're talking about a reasonable number of integral, similarly-named subsidiaries per company. For example, Kuat has three or four, CEC has one, etc. The wording I'm proposing excludes the longer lists of subsidiaries you're talking about, in almost all cases.

2. I've checked the canon company list and no such examples exist. The closest thing would be Sienar/Jaemus, which I think is a new-canon evolution of a subsidiary of a subsidiary of Legends Santhe - and nowhere listed as a subsidiary, far as I can see. Santhe's creator consented to that at the time anyway. The proposed wording wouldn't change anything with that specific situation.

3. I've only seen one example that would take the total company/subsidiary number above five. Would adding a maximum number for these claims work for you? For example:

2. Your Canon Company may not own other Canon Companies as subsidiaries unless they are directly referenced in the Wookieepedia as similarly-named subsidiaries of that Canon Company. Such subsidiaries do not require their own company submissions, but must be named and hyperlinked in your Canon Company submission. Your Canon Company may hold a maximum of three such subsidiaries.

Would you be more comfortable with something like that?

1. What would constitute integral? It would be entirely subjective to say that one canon company's subsidiary is integral whilst another is not, despite both being linked to it through canon sources. This would either mean it's up to the judge's discretion to determine if a company subsidiary is integral, or we have to concede that all sourced canon subsidiaries are acceptable.

2. That is helpful information.

3. I would prefer that there be a cap on this, as there are for canon items, to prevent a company from potentially, down the line, having half a dozen or more canon subsidiaries and collecting them.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

[member="Jamie Pyne"]

Thanks for the dialogue. Consider this suggestion retired. I think the direction we discussed just now is a cleaner solution. Nice work.

 

[Popo]

And then you have companies like Tenloss which canonically are less a company and more a group of smaller companies overseen by a crime syndicate operating like a management company attempting to appear legitimate but really no one just wants to bother unraveling all the strings pulling the different parts of the body. Hell, even I don't wanna unravel the strings and I own the thing.