How A Major Faction Owner Gets Banned

WISCOM · Apr 21, 2021

Wow I can see that tinfoil hat shining from all the way over here bud.

Ellie Mors · Apr 21, 2021

Wow. Most of TSE's staff and former staff considered HissHiss a friend, if temporarily estranged by recent attitudes. To take a loss in a writing forum so personally to attack people with implications of bribery or other absolute BS is disgusting, especially people who treated them as their own.

Felix Aquila · Apr 21, 2021

I do think that 'some' of this stems from the fact that the methods in which invasions in particular are judged can be seen by many to be subjective in nature by the RPJ's, so, one person's interpretation of drama and tension may not be the same as anothers' which can cause tension and issues. However, that does not excuse this behavior in the slightest.

I dont know CHAOS' history in this regard, but it might be something for staff to talk on?

Cedric Grayson · Apr 21, 2021

This is the 'invasions need to be won by solid objectives' vs the 'the invasions need to be won by reader opinion' debate taken to its extreme. If you sacrifice objectivity for subjectivity there will always be one party or another that feels slighted because no result can be 'proven' beyond a reasonable doubt, even if the general consensus is that they lost. With total objectivity you may get more 'boring' invasions as its about taking actual objectives, whereas the way it is now revolves around compelling story, but makes achieving objectives irrelevant. As long as there is perceived subjectivity in invasion results there's always going to be someone denying them.

Felix Aquila said:
I dont know CHAOS' history in this regard, but it might be something for staff to talk on?

We used to have invasions being primarily objective based, which were eventually shelved for the system we have now. As I remember the general complaint was that some pretty moving story stuff could be accomplished, but if the objective failed then it just failed, leading to the current system. The system also discouraged losing as it could make someone feel like they're letting their faction down if they did so. Personally I kinda stopped doing invasions after the change because it made fleeting, commanding armies, and doing side objectives feel pretty irrelevant compared to the more personal duels between individuals. Some kind of middle ground to appease 'objective' based people that require a victory condition they can't argue about might keep conspiracies about invasion results from cropping up as much as they do now in the future. Fact of the matter is every current invasion 'win' condition is subjective aside from participation.

Not saying I agree with what the Warlord MFO said or did, but I've seen this kind of attitude crop up quite a bit, more so lately as the dynamics of the map have shifted, and I feel like the lack of any kind of 'objective truth' in invasion results is a big part of it. If the results stem from whose story is more compelling, both sides will by biased toward their own, and it's very easy to say the judge is in kahoots with the other guy if you really believe you've won and the judge says otherwise. It's a lot easier than admitting the judge just liked the other guy's story more than yours. It's the common thread of every 'staff conspiracy' I've heard in the past three years.

So uh, pretty much everything Felix said.

Felix Aquila · Apr 21, 2021

Cedric Grayson said:
This is the 'invasions need to be won by solid objectives' vs the 'the invasions need to be won by reader opinion' debate taken to its extreme. If you sacrifice objectivity for subjectivity there will always be one party or another that feels slighted because no result can be 'proven' beyond a reasonable doubt, even if the general consensus is that they lost. With total objectivity you may get more 'boring' invasions as its about taking actual objectives, whereas the way it is now revolves around compelling story, but makes achieving objectives irrelevant. As long as there is perceived subjectivity in invasion results there's always going to be someone denying them.

We used to have invasions being primarily objective based, which were eventually shelved for the system we have now. As I remember the general complaint was that some pretty moving story stuff could be accomplished, but if the objective failed then it just failed, leading to the current system. The system also discouraged losing as it could make someone feel like they're letting their faction down if they did so. Personally I kinda stopped doing invasions after the change because it made fleeting, commanding armies, and doing side objectives feel pretty irrelevant compared to the more personal duels between individuals. Some kind of middle ground to appease 'objective' based people that require a victory condition they can't argue about might keep conspiracies about invasion results from cropping up as much as they do now in the future. Fact of the matter is every current invasion 'win' condition is subjective aside from participation.

Not saying I agree with what the Warlord MFO said or did, but I've seen this kind of attitude crop up quite a bit, more so lately as the dynamics of the map have shifted, and I feel like the lack of any kind of 'objective truth' in invasion results is a big part of it. If the results stem from whose story is more compelling, both sides will by biased toward their own, and it's very easy to say the judge is in kahoots with the other guy if you really believe you've won and the judge says otherwise. It's a lot easier than admitting the judge just liked the other guy's story more than yours. It's the common thread of every 'staff conspiracy' I've heard in the past three years.

So uh, pretty much everything Felix said.

Don't get me wrong, im not saying the system should be scrapped in lieu of a competitive system in which PvP wins / Objective completes are the sole factor that determines a win. I'm just saying that at least 'one' of the categories in which these things are judged should be. That way, a faction that only wins the PvP part, could be beaten out by another faction that wins say; both the tension and participation components. But it would allow some foundational measure in the decision of a thread.

What i do like is the thought of the PvP section and the Drama section working along side one another as a balancing measure. That way if one side decides to be rude and obnoxious in a PvP setting in order to win. They would lose points and likely ultimately lose the drama section as a consequence which would inherently balance the system out, and act as a preventative measure for toxicity.

I think having some method for objectivity also protects staff somewhat against allegations like this. I know that they're all big girls and boys so they can probably take it, and i love what they do, but I'm sure its no fun.

Just an elaboration. I don't want to eat up much of this comment section, So this will likely be my last post, Though

Cedric Grayson we could always write up a formal suggestion to the suggestions area?

Cedric Grayson · Apr 21, 2021

Felix Aquila - Probably the best move. Shoot me a PM and I'll add you on discord, we can push something in the appropriate channels.

Tefka · Apr 22, 2021

Felix Aquila said:
I think having some method for objectivity also protects staff somewhat against allegations like this.

Staff doesn't need protection from stuff like this, I think ya'll are missing the point. Crazy Pants McGee doesn't get to fly off the handle and then his behavior "changes the system", he nor the others before him earn that. The system doesn't need changing. The system is a bunch of nerds posting Star Wars fanfiction and collaboratively writing stories and having fun and gently prodding Staff with their sideways memes and emotes.

Ya'll think I never been D:'d at an invasion loss before? slow head turn to NIO, Ra, and Zef's cool video that got interrupted by an last ditch win by TSE. 99% of people react entirely normally, it's not fun to lose, but you walk. it. the. @#$%. off. You don't blame RPJ's, change their discord roles, or accuse Staff of being TSE's pawn when only ONE out of 12 Staff members even has remotely close ties to that faction.

What can help alleviate people losing their shit like Voyance did here is healthy friends keeping them in check. Not fabricated power dynamics between Faction Admin and Owner, or people chasing clout for girls or friends or acceptance, but actual friends going "bro, you need to stop, this is not very cash money of you."

Don't blame Staff nor the system for swinging the hammer too hard because ya'll enable this behavior in the backrooms of QAnon Flat Earth Discordia. This community needs more strong leaders who call this behavior out, in private or in their factions, people who can think independently of flashy jokes and memes and actually realize where the line is. This community needs more people empowered to call these people out. And if they don't? If it does continue to "get to the Admins"? So be it. System doesn't need changing, people like this will just leave. I don't want them to. But I will meet whatever energy they give me with the same, and this year we're kinda done pulling our punches.

Like I told the WOTS Admins when we were very chill in talking about things after the fact, I'm like Yoda's dark side cave - you get what you bring with you.

Tefka · Apr 22, 2021

And make absolutely no @#$%ing mistake about it, please. We can point fingers at each other, the logo, the website. We can wonder why it happens. We can play this "survivor's guilt" roleplayer dramatic drop game. I'll join in, as I obviously do in the post above. We all want a solution to make things constantly better here, and I'm about it.

But the responsibility, the blame, for taking an position of authority in this community and turning it into a childish conspiratorial spatfest upon recieving his first invasion loss lies solely on Darth Voyance's shoulders. Not yours, reader, not Staff's, not the Invasion team's, not TSE's, not NIO's, not GA's, and not mine.

His actions, his words, his choices, his consequences.

Felix Aquila · Apr 22, 2021

Tefka said:
Don't blame Staff nor the system for swinging the hammer too hard because ya'll enable this behavior in the backrooms of QAnon Flat Earth Discordia.

Please don't pull me into this like that or make assumptions about my actions or motives, there's no need to take shots. I said that the behavior was inexcusable, i don't support, enable or condone anyone taking their issues out on a staff member or ANY member on CHAOS for any reason. If you have an issue, you act like a grown @$$ adult and talk it out like one. It's abhorrent, anyone who projects their issues out that way should have people talk them down.

So, I'm not 'blaming' anyone, I'm simply pointing out the fact that so long that the metric of judging something that is inherently competitive is completely subjective, it will inevitably cause friction. This system is updated and improved all the time, in the factory, the codex with updated templates and tools for people to use. I'm not saying ditch the map game or change all invasions / PvP to totally win-centric metrics like other sites. Just that there is room for a judgement category based in something observably quantitative. They didn't earn anything, they're banned, they can't benefit from any changes that develop from this. But this point was true before them and it will be true after they've been dead and buried.

I'm just trying to be Constructive.

If you'd like to talk to me about it more, feel free to DM me <3

Tefka · Apr 22, 2021

Crazy hot take, what if we like, didn't try to solve it though, and just appreciated that this was an explanation for why an MFO is gone.

Suggestions and systemic rule changes are a dime a dozen, when's the last time we just collectively sat here and went "ooo, that was f'd up."

Cedric Grayson · Apr 22, 2021

hey man I'm just trying to use discord drama to further my personal agenda like the guys on 4chan told me to

Ellie Mors · Apr 22, 2021

There is never going to be a perfect solution for judging invasions. The moral of this story isn't "sometimes people take out their frustrations poorly when they lose an invasion, don't be like this guy and maybe if we change things this won't happen again" because it will if the right person is effected; it's "sometimes you need to think before you act, and if you're going to do something like this - don't."

People had tinfoil hats on their heads long before the story-based invasion judgment system was a thing, people still dogwhistled about "cliques" then, too, when things didn't go their way. I suppose this is only as shocking as it is because of who it is. This isn't behavior I would've expected from them, not given what I've experienced in the almost 7 years I've been on the forum with intermittent interaction throughout with them.

I don't really have a big solution, and I'm not going to try to pretend I do, except try not to assume that everyone who isn't "on your side" is out to get you or something, or that we're, uh, I guess sucking on staff's @*$( or something.

Most of us just want to write, man. Whatever experience whoever might be reading this has had with people on the forum, negative or otherwise, we aren't our characters, you can reach out and resolve whatever beef you have in as few as 3 quick messages. Chances are the people you think do things maliciously are probably not aware that you're seeing things that way.

Subject 73 Red · Apr 23, 2021

I always love seeing these little bits and pieces into the crap Tefka puts up with, dude has a will of steel. The way this was handled was flawless, Tefka let him rant for a good while, gave him plenty of chances to stop, and didn’t hesitate to bring down the hammer and shut him down.

Tefka is the based god

WISCOM · Apr 23, 2021

Tefka said:
make absolutely no @#$%ing mistake

Language Tefka this is a pg to pg13 server

Ala Quin · Apr 25, 2021

Subjective. Objective. People still complain when things don't go their way. The system is always rigged against someone carrying a preloaded victim mentality.

Will miss Voyance. Genuinely enjoyed the couple of RPs I had with the character.

Beltran Rarr · Apr 25, 2021

I've been a part of many communities where Staff did what Voyance accused on the regular. Chaos isn't that. Time and again I have been impressed with the maturity in which

Tefka and the others have dealt with issues like these. I don't like losing invasions any more than the next wannabe action hero, but Voyance's comments have very little to do with how invasions are actually judged and more to do with being a sore loser. I suggest that to all of us, myself included, that if you start seeing grand conspiracies behind the judgement of things like invasions, it's probably best to take a break. This is a game, not real life.

Anywho, that's my two cents for what it's worth. Keep on keepin' on and stay safe everyone!

Ijaat Mereel · Apr 27, 2021

I'm openly critical of... Anyone and everything... Vocal about it too.

This though? This was handled perfectly well and Tef was nicer about it that I likely would have been. But that's why he gets to deal with all of our drama and I get to sit here and shitpost, and why Chaos keeps running.

Kids, this is an example of What Not To Do on Chaos 101

Elias Burgendy · Apr 29, 2021

TEFKA

Tae'l Vizsla · Apr 30, 2021

The way voyance spoke, It reminds me of a few manipulative exes and that's a reaaaaaally bad vibe

Lunafreya Solidor · May 5, 2021

Frankly? I don't know what gusto means.

How A Major Faction Owner Gets Banned

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WISCOM

Ellie Mors

Felix Aquila

Cedric Grayson

Felix Aquila

Cedric Grayson

Tefka

Tefka

Felix Aquila

Tefka

Cedric Grayson

Ellie Mors

Subject 73 Red

WISCOM

Ala Quin

Beltran Rarr

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Tae'l Vizsla

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