Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Factory 4.0 review

I like it.

I like that values are traded for, instead of getting bought with dev thread posts. I can't get away with near as much as I could with Factory 3.0, but that's a good thing.

It's also much easier to understand what is acceptable and what isn't, and seems like it creates a great deal of uniformity in how judges respond to submissions.

Good job admin team.
 
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Sanya Val Lerium

Neutral, Queen of Her people, Neko
I still think that mixing 2.0 and 3.0 would have been better for starships. I don't like the idea of people making ships without the information of weapons. Personal ships I don't mind but the ones been made for fleeting makes it difficult for other fleeters. I guess I like the whole research and math of it.
 
[member="Sanya Val Swift"]

Trust me. This is what is best for fleeters. Special snowflake weapons should be a quirk, not the main focus (with the rare exception). And those rare exception should be (and now are) unique and near-unique toys set aside for PC Captains so they can have an appropriate tactical impact in a naval engagement while the "fleeters" focus on spaceship whack-a-mole.
 
[member="Captain Larraq"]

Glad it's appreciated. A lot of work went into getting the new tech/vehicles/starship templates done.

Have you seen my little excel sheet that spits out the template with the code and your stats yet?
 

Klesta

The King of Ergonomic Assessments
[member="Captain Larraq"] In my mind 4.0 is more of a dogfighter's ruleset.

Even though I'm not as opposed to number-less stuff as [member="Sanya Val Swift"] is, to me, not listing weapons may, depending on the writer, imply either a vanilla loadout or total weapons modularity within the confines of a rating, so long as it isn't None. Here total modularity means that writers can outfit any weapons they have access to so long as the total gun count is consistent with the rating, because two similarly-sized ships with the same ratings but different weapon loadouts have different tactical strengths and weaknesses.

For this reason alone I would like fleeters that use ships devoid of gun counts but with a nonzero armament rating, to list what's in use on those ships when they use those ships against me: clarity is often key to defuse drama in a fleeting context and this is the reason why I continue to list gun loadouts (with firing arcs whenever applicable).

Was I, in the future, to sub ships with a nonzero armament rating but devoid of any gun counts, however, I would state "weapons loadouts can be easily modified" as a strength or some such thing.

And I still find that the 4.0 system doesn't make fleeting less of a naval wargame, just a different one. i'm in the thick of a fleeting engagement on my alt Cathul on Skor (where all ships used by both sides have clear weapons loadouts), but I believe the Dromund Kaas invasion would be a better test of the strengths and limitations of the 4.0 system especially since the Harrower will see its "baptism of fire" there (provided the Resurgent Empire actually has a fleeter; the Harrower does not have a weapons count but have a nonzero armament rating).

And it also makes comparison of speed/maneuverability across rulesets a headache (less so if one is a dogfighter, but nevertheless somewhat of an issue) and, given the sheer number of parameters fleeters have to take into account, a guide to this end would be well-appreciated so the speed/maneuverability parameters would not cause undue headaches.
 
Gotta thank the Factory RPJ's and Factory Judges for this, most especially [member="Raziel"] for the new ship format.

I am just glad that the factory is more accessible and easier for our board members.

In a few months time, I hope to bring some more fun additions. Ideas are always welcomed and we are willing to consider fully thought out proposals and discussions that can perhaps make the factory even better. :)
 
I have given this some thought earlier and I mostly like this system, granted I have no experience with the old one. However, I think two things could be added to make it better.

1) Range: This one could be simple, instead of listing one damage rating, you list three. One for Long range, one Average range, one Short range.\

2) Cross-class ratings: This one would be harder to implement, but I think it would be better to do this way than try to figure out the firepower differences between a 490 meter Frigate and a 510 meter cruiser due to them being on different scales.

That said, if it was up to me we'd be playing BFG in space on a grid with set weapon charts and ship point costs and set rules, but not everyone likes numbers.
 
[member="Saul Perth"]

The ideas in and of themselves are fine though there are a couple issues. In reference to the first suggestion it would require at least 6 ratings. One of each rating for in amd out of atmosphere. In addition that would mean we need to know the rate at which weapons performance degrades over a set distance for each weapon in canon and legends as well as those created by the users of the site. As it stands we have a max effective range and it suits the purposes of the site perfectly fine. Remember this is a place to tell a story, adding some game like mechanics is okay, but introducing hard numbers outside what is absolutely needed just makes things overly complex.

Now to the second point. The cross class ratings would again add unnecessary complexity. What defines whether the 490 meter ship is a cruiser or a frigate? Is it the length, the armament, defenses, speed rating, what exactly defines such things. As it stands we have a system that simplifies this by providing multiple examples of each ship class and different variants within.

If this were a tabletop SRPG like 40k or a pen n'paper RPG like Edge of the Empire, I wouldn't bring up the points I do. Here though its more about the story than hard numbers and game mechanics. Again clarification is important to a degree, but when it comes down to it I personally see this as a bit much.
 

Klesta

The King of Ergonomic Assessments
I already broached in the topic of cross-class issues but in a context of speed/maneuverability. It is a lot more troublesome than with armament in my mind (as I said before armament has its own set of issues): cross-class armament issues would be pretty easily solved with a clear weapons loadout as far as I'm concerned.

For PvE having vague equipment is not a big deal but in PvP fleeting clarity is key to avoid drama: GA-vs-FO engagements (Kaeshana, Asmeru, Skor) were pretty drama-free from fleeting sources but all ships used by both sides systematically include weapons counts. Dromund Kaas may be the first real test of the system in a PvP fleeting context for this reason, if only because the RE will field (some?) ships without weapons counts. Personally I feel that it would make OOC dealings more complicated if one side uses ships without clear loadouts and the other clearly lists theirs.

However, as I said, just stating a weapons rating without an actual weapons count would make the story much more difficult to tell in a PvP fleeting context: one can conceivably imagine two similarly-sized ships with the same armament, hangar size, speed, speed/maneuverability, defense ratings. There are stuff characters can only do because they have a specific piece of equipment, or are unable to take action because they lack another specific piece of equipment, and in fleeting, I found equipment to be story-critical, to the point that I seem to treat each individual capital ship as a character onto itself (a named NPC pretty much, with attack craft treated as units, and this is pretty much standard practice for fleeting from what I observed) when I fleet: I just wouldn't write my end of the story the same even if the equipment on just one ship is different.

The closest thing that springs to mind is Harrower vs. Tector-X (probably some attack craft examples can also be drawn): they both have the following ratings:
  • Armament: High
  • Defenses: Moderate
  • Hangar: 4 squadrons
  • Speed: Low
  • Maneuverability: Low
The Harrower doesn't list a single hardpoint, whereas the Tector-X systematically lists every single weapon with at least one hardpoint on it but also how many of each there are on firing arcs. One could easily imagine a Harrower subclass where there are no long-range weapons (e.g. if the assumption of generic equipment holds, but I would never make it under any circumstances unless specified by the player using such ships), another Harrower subclass where the firepower is concentrated in a small number of heavy long-range hardpoints (in which case it will be vulnerable to a squadron of fast frigates or similar), another one where some sacrifices in the area of heavy turbolasers were made for missiles, yet another one where missiles were eschewed for more point-defense... and all of those could average out to a High armament rating. What makes non-average circumstances, well, not-average, heavily depends on the loadout.

[member="Captain Larraq"] My main concern with ships whose weapons loadouts are indefinite that are expected to be used in fleeting is that players using them can use the vagueness associated with not listing weapons to change the weapons configuration mid-battle. Changing a heavy long-range turbolaser for an equivalent heavy turbolaser hardpoint (just an example) takes much longer than 1 or even 2 fleeting rounds, and the hardpoint being changed becomes a weak spot on the ship for the duration of the change.

Changing the loadout between a battle and another is not as much of an issue however. Unless specifically stated in the ship sub that weapons can be rapidly and readily changed in battle, in which case it is a strength (and a pretty significant one), this is the main avenue of abuse of the 4.0 system right here. Might be better balanced for new ship construction, but this is where the balance ends due to the above issue.

[member="Kurayami Bloodborn"] What determines a ship's classification is the greatest dimension of the ship (usually length but I have seen my share of ships whose greatest dimension isn't the length), and this is the whole basis of the canon Anaxes War College system, which is used here with little modification.
 
If someone changes weapons loadout midbattle then message the writer and work it out. Report it if you can't. And I was asking what he was referring to as the ships mentioned could be in the same classification according to length. Both could be listed as a cruiser or a frigate. Where it gets a bit confusing in that respect is that a 490 meter ship could be considered an escort cruiser or war frigate depending on armaments. There is allowance for variance to a degree in the naming convention based on other stats.
 

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