Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Rule Change Request; Company tier advancement

Should these changes be implemented?

  • It is fine the way it is.

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • All of this. Do it. Do it now!

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • This brings up some good points, and some excessive ones.

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • I don't like these options, but the advancement guide should be improved upon.

    Votes: 6 37.5%

  • Total voters
    16
The TLDR of what I'd like to discuss here is fairly simple... The Private Sector. I don't feel that the private sector is being adequately taken into account by the current rules for company tier advancement. Furthermore, I feel that the existing rules greatly limit who can and who can not achieve a tier advancement.

OOC argument:

There are a select few individuals on the board capable of granting a 'Major Faction Contract'. Without such contract and the IC and OOC approval of said writer, no company can grow using the current rules. Even when these few individuals are willing to work with you, many do not have the time to get dragged into mundane threads for the benefit of someone else. This is typically an issue with all dev threads, but it is exasperated when specific people are required for these threads.

IC argument:

While governments are huge organizations capable of spending ridiculous amounts of money, they are not the only organizations of great wealth. While there are numerous companies and corporations that have grown to incredible size and wealth due to contracts with governments, they are the minority. It is far more common for a company to reach a great size due to sales to common consumers or to other companies and corporations.


Proposition:
Create a statistical value for primary and secondary Major Factions (such as 'The Republic' being a Primary Major Faction and the 'Levantine Sanctum' being a Secondary Major Faction), Minor Factions, and Companies of different tiers to use in Tier advancement. And while I suppose it should be obvious which are primary and which are secondary major factions... for the sake of argument, lets say that a Secondary Major Faction owns less than 20-30 planets or has less than X members.

Primary and Secondary Major Factions
The Republic: Primary
The Omega Protectorate: Primary
The Lords of the Fringe: Primary
The C.I.S.: Primary
The Mandalorians: Primary
The Black Sun Syndicate: Secondary (almost primary)
The Moross Crusade: Secondary
The Horde: Secondary
The New Order: Secondary
The One Sith: Secondary
The Levantine Sanctum: Secondary


Faction/Company Contract Values
Primary Major Faction Contract: 7 points
Tier 6 Company Contract: 6 points
Secondary Major Faction Contract: 5 points
Tier 5 Company Contract: 5 points
Tier 4 Company Contract: 4 points
Minor Faction Contract: 3 points (because anyone can 'create' a minor faction, and canon companies can start at tier 3)
Tier 3 Company Contract: 3 points
Tier 2 Company Contract: 2 point
Tier 1 Company Contract: 1 point

Secondary Major Faction contract value explained
While it takes several writers banding together to create a new major faction, not much IC work must be achieved before this point. In many cases, tier 5 and 6 companies have dozens of high quality threads leading up to them achieving their size and status. For this reason, I feel that Tier 6 companies deserve to have more sway than new/small/secondary major factions.


Existing Rules
Tier V-VI
Sign a Contract with two or more Major Factions

Tier IV-V
Sign a Contract with two or more Major Factions

Tier III-IV
Sign a contract with three more player-run organizations, one of which must be a major faction

Tier II-III
Sign a contract with two more factions or organizations

Tier I-II
Sign a contract with at least one faction or organization


What I would like to suggest
Tier V-VI: 14 Contract points
Examples;
Sign a contract with two Primary Major Factions, or
Sign a contract with two Tier 6 Companies and a Tier 2 Company, or
Sign a contract with two Tier 5 Companies and a Tier 4 Company, or
Sign a contract with three Tier 4 Companies and a Tier 2 Company, or
Sign a contract with seven Tier 2 Companies


Tier IV-V: 12 Contract points
Examples;
Sign a contract with two Tier 6 Companies, or
Sign a contract with a Primary Major Faction and a Tier 5 Company, or
Sign a contract with three Tier 4 Companies, or
Sign a contract with four Tier 3 Companies


Tier III-IV: 10 Contract points
Examples;
Sign a contract with a Secondary Major Faction and a Tier 5 Company, or
Sign a contract with a Primary Major Faction and a Tier 3 Company, or
Sign a contract with a Tier 4 Company and two Tier 3 Companies


Tier II-III: 6 Contract points
Examples;
Sign a contract with a Primary Major Faction or Tier 6 Company, or
Sign a contract with two Minor Factions or Tier 3 Companies, or
Sign a contract with a Tier 4 Company and a Tier 2 Company


Tier I-II: 3 Contract points
Examples;
Sign a contract with a Minor Faction or Tier 3 Company, or
Sign a contract with a Tier 2 Company and Tier 1 Company







Primarily, why do I think we should make this change?

Because it will get the people who care about this stuff (namely the people who own companies) roleplaying with each other instead of fighting for the attention of the handful of people in control of the major factions.
 
[member="Jacen Cavill"]

That is not 95% of the market. 95% of the market would be the individual civilians that live on those worlds. At best, all the governments lumped together would equate 20-30% of the market. And that's pushing it.

This isn't just Capital Ships and Tanks we're talking about. This is steel. This is protocol droids. This is high quality electronics. Even Popo's dirty magazines. You think the government is going to buy dirty magazines? Okay... So maybe the Black Suns might issue dirty magazines to their troops as entertainment and moral improving devices, but that's still going to primarily be sold in the private sector.
 
To be fair, what Larraq's proposing would help me out as it literally becomes impossible at a point for me to make contracts with new major factions due to their antagonism towards Subach. I make a contract with the New Order, Horde, One Sith... and that's really it. I can't advance any further. Or does that rule include multiple contracts from a single major faction?

Also, would like to propose that Marketplace contracts count for the contract requirement - they are still valid contracts respected IC as such.
 

Saera Willamina Savan

~+--- Skaidra ---+~ Beskarsmith, Alchemist
Long Story Short: There are about twelve major factions. There are at least three times that many corporations. A lot of those factions tend towards only a few specific corporations, or won't accept others due to their own alignments - or simply don't need any more contracts. Getting a fair advancement becomes obscured by political BS or lack of need for more manufacturers.
 
Like I said... The handful of writers that run major factions have ~full~ control over what companies do or do not advance in tier. By no means am I implying that anyone conspires with anyone else to purposely block a company from advancing... But if the IC views, alignments, and affiliations of an individual/government clash, then there are few alternatives. If the owner of a company is light/dark sided by nature, then that precludes them from doing business with about half the factions on the board. Even 'neutral' individuals have their options limited.

As a canon company, Mandal Hypernautics must be politically aware of the views and alignments with the Mandalorians. This restricts the company from doing business with either Sith faction and from doing business with the Republic. Yet within my own faction, Gilamar and Ordo would be the only two individuals I could make sales to. Both of which own companies and due to the fragmented nature of Mandalorians into tribes... It doesn't make sense for one individual to purchase supplies for the entire faction. Ordo could buy ships for Clan Ordo. Gilamar could buy ships for Clan Skirata. But there is no 'central' military or government to sell to. And neither individual is particularly active within the faction or available for random threads where I sell things.

So what are my other option? This leaves the Fringe, the Protectorate, the CIS, and the Black Suns as the primary targets for contracts. All/most of which already have their own supply of ships, weapons, vehicles, and armors and can call upon their own writers/companies to create what they need. The Horde is questionable due to their affiliation with 'Death Watch' and the IC dislike of technology. The Crusade and LS are options... But again. Political affiliations come into play. If Mandal Hypernautics sells ships to the Crusade, then the Crusade gets in a fight with the Protectorate, the OP might show up and ask why we sold ships to the Crusade... at which point the faction points at Mandal Hypernautics and suddenly OP is putting political pressure on a company.



So what option is there really? Either I make OOC sales to the 'clans' of the Mandalorian faction with no real benefit or possibility for tier advancement (I've been pestering Gil and Ordo for months now to do IC contracts with me, but neither has an interest in it.).... Or I start making sales to other companies. I'm more likely to be successful selling parts and supplies to the manufacturing companies of other factions so that THEY can make the fancy ships for that faction than I am at trying to sell ships directly to the faction. And I feel that such contracts between companies should be represented on the Tier Advancement chart.
 
No system is perfect, but ours is simple and works. What you're asking is more work for judges. You've got to look at it from our perspective.


With planets, we just try to stay within reason and what canon(which is wonky dictates.) with species it's the same, as with every other division in the factory. With business a set of generic rules was put in place and it works.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Captain Larraq said:
There are a select few individuals on the board capable of granting a 'Major Faction Contract'. Without such contract and the IC and OOC approval of said writer, no company can grow using the current rules.
I'm okay with this. Limitation by player participation is healthy in my opinion. Now, is there room for improvement? Yeah. But I didn't see a massive-massive improvement in Larraq's proposals over the status quo. Sorry man. :(
 
While I can certainly empathize with what is being said here, a certain thought comes to mind.

The limitations set by the current system actually make the experience for CC owners more ... natural. More realistic.

Realistically, a company is going to have to watch who and what they sell their product and service to. Realistically it's hard for companies to make it big in the real world.

I get that this is a game and we all want to have fun, but instead of looking at this with the thought that "I'm being restrained from my fun!" try looking at it as "I'm being challenged to think really hard about how to make this work."
 
I can agree to an extent. But company to company sales need to be taken into account with the tier advancement scheme. A contract with a Tier 5 or 6 company is a big deal. Besides, there are... what? 4 tier 6 companies on the board? There are fewer Tier 6 companies than Major Factions. Arguably, a contract with a Tier 6 company should be a bigger deal by rarity alone, than a contract with a major faction.
 
Captain Larraq said:
There are a select few individuals on the board capable of granting a 'Major Faction Contract'.

Welp. That's life for you.



Captain Larraq said:
Primary Major Faction Contract: 7 points Tier 6 Company Contract: 6 points Secondary Major Faction Contract: 5 points Tier 5 Company Contract: 5 points Tier 4 Company Contract: 4 points Minor Faction Contract: 3 points (because anyone can 'create' a minor faction, and canon companies can start at tier 3) Tier 3 Company Contract: 3 points Tier 2 Company Contract: 2 point Tier 1 Company Contract: 1 point
But I do like this whole thing a lot. Really I do, but... I don't know, I don't think it remedies the problem so much as pushes it around. I honestly can't figure out whether it'll really work better or not.

I'll have to mull it over a little bit and confer with the other two company judges about it, see what they think. I'll get back to you folks.



Enigma said:
Also, would like to propose that Marketplace contracts count for the contract requirement - they are still valid contracts respected IC as such.
No.
 
Lorelei Darke said:
I get that this is a game and we all want to have fun, but instead of looking at this with the thought that "I'm being restrained from my fun!" try looking at it as "I'm being challenged to think really hard about how to make this work."
Except it doesn't. There are well and truly instances where it is impossible to work around the system put in place.

Darth Janus said:
Oh please. If we're going to be 'realistic' about this, as the system in play implies, then contracts made in the marketplace are as valid as those in threads. You knew and agreed with this until recently - don't know how the shift from the Bazaar to the Marketplace changes anything.
 
Enigma said:
Oh please. If we're going to be 'realistic' about this, as the system in play implies, then contracts made in the marketplace are as valid as those in threads. You knew and agreed with this until recently - don't know how the shift from the Bazaar to the Marketplace changes anything.
My suggestion on this one is that if anyone requests a contract from you and you feel is large enough to qualify as a tier advancement requirement, then you should restrict the sale to IC only. Or if you have a product that you know it top quality, reserve it solely for 'in character purchases only', or 'not for individual sale'.

Doesn't mean that the product won't be sold. Just means that the product won't be sold without the company getting something out of it.

Like... I love the Auction House and Marketplace. Letting people pop and grab a single ship or vehicle, or item is great. And I've got some plans in the works that will lead up to an Auction... I'm interested to see what gets offered for the products I have planned for it, and I'm interested in seeing what people really think my products are worth. But on the whole... I can agree that the average sale on the Marketplace just covers the 'day to day' stuff. Not... groundbreaking sales and contracts... which should be done IC anyways.

>_>
<_<
>_>
 

Jorga the Hutt

When life gives you Mandos, make Mando'ade
[member="Enigma"]
The difference is pretty basic. You worked for one; the other required thirty seconds with a keyboard. We'd have people getting tiers in days rather than weeks.
 
[member="Captain Larraq"] Thinking proactively instead of dramatically is what gets things done. I like this idea and I do believe KDY has already implemented it in sorts within the Marketplace.

As far as being unable to work around the system put in place, that seems more like an IC issue than anything, which is something that must have evolved out of choices and decisions made with purpose in the past that ended in consequences that do not suit one's needs.

Again, large companies and corporations have to act and do business with some form of tact and strategy. They have to look at plausible future outcomes from business deals. They have to keep their eye on the diplomatic ball and watch the tides of power around them. When they fail to do this, then they flounder and ... get stuck in areas that are difficult to work around.
 
This is honestly coming off as this.


"People don't like me and they don't want my products or my companies so let's change the rules so I can advance."


Listen, business isn't fair. I report to two people in my district who are both in charge of promoting me and I bust my tail for them. They like me and I fit the image, I'm on the fast track. I know some who are hated and won't ever get higher than what they are. Is it fair? Nope, but it's business and real life.


You want tier promotions, make friends IC and OOC and be fun to write with and make stuff they like and need.
 
There are certain things companies sell that really you don't need a thread with the owner of a company for. No one really needs to meet with Jared Ovmar to buy a single servodriver or with Selka for that one cargo container. Other things like for example the Blackbirds might merit it and did. Me and Lorelei did a thread for the purchase and business dealings. I would say marketplace orders have some credit, it means people are buying your products but maybe not count them as full deals. Perhaps 10 orders equals 1 deal just as a spitball
 
Lorelei Darke said:
Again, large companies and corporations have to act and do business with some form of tact and strategy. They have to look at plausible future outcomes from business deals. They have to keep their eye on the diplomatic ball and watch the tides of power around them. When they fail to do this, then they flounder and ... get stuck in areas that are difficult to work around.

I agree. But who you do business on a company to company level falls into this guideline of yours just as much as company to government. If I sell Nuclear Reactors to Circe or Ahri's company, then they go and use them to make bombs to use against the republic, that can come back on me just as badly as if I had sold Nuclear Bombs to the Black Sun Syndicate. Well... almost. "I sold them reactors and they made bombs. I'm pretty sure that voided a warantee somewhere." would likely come out of Larraq's mouth at some point.

All the same. Selling Reactors to the company produces just as much gain as selling to a faction.

An example. I make a frigate that requires a component from Domino's company. The Mandalorian Faction likely has around 200-500 of these frigates at various locations within their borders. I made that contract on a company to company level and the number that I end up selling to the faction as a whole is... well... unofficial because Gilamar/Ordo never do any IC purchases/contracts for the faction. All the same, Domino makes about 200,000 to 800,000 Credits for each of those Sensors that Mandal Hypernautics purchases. That's between 40 and 400 million credits her company is getting.

The how and why of that meaning less than a direct contract with a major faction... just doesn't make sense to me.
 

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